[cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] Should isnan be optimized out in fast-math mode?

Thu Sep 16 20:53:00 PDT 2021

On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 8:23 PM Serge Pavlov via cfe-dev <
cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 3:11 AM Chris Tetreault <ctetreau at quicinc.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The difference there is that doing pointer arithmetic on null pointers
>> doesn't *usually* work, unless you turn on -ffast-pointers.
>>
>> It seems to me that  most confusion related to -ffast-math is likely
>> caused by people who are transitioning to using it. I have some codebase,
>> and I turn on fast math, and then a few months down the road I notice a
>> strangeness that I did not catch during the initial transition period. If
>> you're writing new code with fast-math, you don't do things like try to use
>> NaN as a sentinel value in a TU with fast math turned on. This is the sort
>> of thing you catch when you try to transition an existing codebase. Forgive
>> me for the uncharitable interpretation, but it's much easier to ask the
>> compiler to change to accommodate your use case than it is to refactor your
>> code.
>>
>
> It is a common way to explain problems with -ffinite-math-only by user
> ignorance. However user misunderstandings and complaints may indicate a
> flaw in compiler implementation, which I believe we have in this case.
>
> Using NaN as sentinels is a natural way when you cannot spend extra memory
> for keeping flags for each item, spend extra cycles to read that flag and
> do not want to pollute cache. It does not depend on reading documentation
> or writing the code from scratch. It is simply the best solution for
> storing data. If performance of the data processing is critical,
> -ffast-math is a good solution. This is a fairly legitimate use case. The
> fact that the compiler does not allow it is a compiler drawback.
>
>
>> To me, I think Mehdi had the best solution: The algorithm that is the
>> bottleneck, and experiences the huge speedup using fast-math should be
>> separated into its own source file. This source file, and only this source
>> file should be compiled with fast-math. The outer driver loop should not be
>> compiled with fast math. This solution is clean, (probably) easy, and
>> doesn't require a change in the compiler.
>
>
> It is a workaround, it works in some cases but does not in others. ML
> kernel often is a single translation unit, there may be no such thing as
> linker for that processor. At the same time it is computation intensive and
> using fast-math in it may be very profitable.
>

Switching mode in a single TU seems valuable, but could this be handled
with pragmas or function attributes instead?

>
>
>> Changing the compiler is hard, affects everybody who uses the compiler,
>> and creates inconsistency in behavior between clang and gcc (and msvc with
>> /fp:fast), and clang and old versions of clang.
>
>
> ICC and MSVC do not remove `isnan` in fast math mode. If `isnan` is
> implemented in libc, it is also a real check. Actually removing `isnan`
> creates inconsistency.
>
>
>> The behavior of fast-math with respect to NaN is consistent across the
>> mainstream c/c++ compilers: no promises are made, users should not assume
>> that they can use it for anything. Changing it now would create a major
>> portability issue for user codebases, which in and of itself is a very
>> strong reason to not make this change.
>>
>
> Removing `isnan` is only an optimization, it does not intend to change
> semantics. So it cannot create portability issues. Quite the contrary, it
> helps portability by making behavior consistent between compilers and libc
> implementations. The only possible issue is performance loss, this is
> discussed above, it is an unlikely case. Anyway, if such loss exists and it
> is absolutely intolerable for a user, a hack with redefinition of `isnan`
> restores the previous code generation.
>
>
>> If the behavior is confusing to users, that's because it's poorly
>> explained.
>
>
> What is confusing? That the explicitly written call to a function is not
> removed? According to user feedback it is the silent removal of `isnan`
> that confuses users.
>
> Honestly, I think the docs are pretty clear, but "It's clear, you just
>> need to learn to read" is never an acceptable answer so it could certainly
>> be improved. This is the only thing that needs to be fixed in my opinion.
>>
>
> The documentation says about -ffinite-math-only:
>
>  "Allow optimizations for floating-point arithmetic that assume that
> arguments and results are not NaNs or +-Infs."
>
> Is it clear whether `isnan` is arithmetic or not?
>

If the result of a floating point arithmetic is fed directly to `isnan()`,
are we allowed to eliminate the computation and fold the check to none?
(seems like it according to the sentence you're quoting).
Are we back to `isnan(x+0.0)` can be folded but not `isnan(x)`?

-- 
Mehdi

>
>
>> Thanks,
>>    Chris Tetreault
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Kruse <cfe-dev at meinersbur.de>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:29 PM
>> To: Chris Tetreault <ctetreau at quicinc.com>
>> Cc: Serge Pavlov <sepavloff at gmail.com>; llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org;
>> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> Subject: Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] Should isnan be optimized out in
>> fast-math mode?
>>
>> WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary
>> of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.
>>
>> Am Mo., 13. Sept. 2021 um 11:46 Uhr schrieb Chris Tetreault via cfe-dev <
>> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org>:
>> > As a user, if I read that:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ```
>> >
>> > if (isnan(x)) {
>> >
>> > ```
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > … is guaranteed to work, and I read that fast-math enables the compiler
>> to reason about constructs like `x + 0` being equal to `x`, then I’m going
>> to be very confused when:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ```
>> >
>> > if (isnan(x + 0)) {
>> >
>> > ```
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > … does not also work. I’m going to open a bug and complain, and the
>> slide down the slippery slope will continue. You and I understand the
>> difference, and the technical reason why `isnan(x)` is supported but
>> `isnan(x + 0)` isn’t, but Joe Coder just trying to figure out why he’s got
>> NaN in his matrices despite his careful NaN handling code. Joe is not a
>> compiler expert, and on the face of it, it seems like a silly limitation.
>> This will never end until fast-math is gutted.
>>
>> C/C++ already has cases like this. Pointer arithmetic on null pointers is
>> undefined behaviour, even if adding[1,2]/subtracting[3] zero. I don't think
>> it is too far fetched to expect from users to know that an operation is
>> undefined behaviour even if one of the operands is zero.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/main/clang/test/Sema/pointer-addition.c
>> [2]
>> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/main/compiler-rt/test/ubsan/TestCases/Pointer/nullptr-and-nonzero-offset-constants.cpp
>> [3]
>> https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/main/clang/test/Sema/pointer-subtraction.c
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
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