[llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Mon Nov 18 08:22:58 PST 2019

> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing
what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to
over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!

How are the new tools going to help this problem?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:11 AM Neil Henning via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:

> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the
> community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as
> well for new people.
>
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all
> social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly
> terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
>
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool
> out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing
> what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to
> over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
>
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>>
>> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
>>
>> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
>> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
>> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
>> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
>> working well.
>>
>> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
>> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
>> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
>> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
>> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
>> new users would see these days?
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
>> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > Short version:
>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
>> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> >
>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>> >
>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>> >
>> > Longer version & more details:
>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial
>> amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or
>> contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form
>> discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for
>> newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these
>> areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us
>> as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious
>> IRC. ;]
>> >
>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
>> >
>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we
>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>> >
>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
>> etc.
>> >
>> > See the plan here:
>> https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
>> >
>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>> >
>> >
>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>> >
>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around
>> Discord bots.
>> >
>> > -Chandler
>> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com
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