[cfe-dev] [LLVMdev] Windows strategy?

Mon Jun 11 11:35:15 PDT 2012

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Mikael Lyngvig <mikael at lyngvig.org> wrote:

> Hi,

Again, this is more of a topic for cfe-dev (copied).  LLVM itself works
very well on Windows; it's Clang that has issues.

>
> [Synopsis: Mikael thinks Windows support is overlooked and that this is a
> strategic error.  You can skip to the next mail now, if you'd like :-)
>  Long, long, long mail follows.]
>

Generally, I too would like to see much greater Windows support in Clang.
 However, most developers here are centered around Mac/Linux.  It will take
contributions from Windows people to improve this support (and also watch
out for legal quagmires).  It's not so much that LLVM/Clang developers
actively choose not to support Windows, it's more that there are just not
enough resources to improve the support.

>
> Before I go on, I'd like to informally apologize for my many postings to
> this mailing list.  I have no intentions of spamming it, but I still feel a
> need to grasp certain things that seem to be implied by the documentation
> or perhaps not described at all.  Also, as a self-appointed LLVM/Clang
> Windows Evangelist, I'd like to keep Windows in your mental horizon so that
> we one day have full support for at the very least both 32-bit and 64-bit
> variants of Clang using the respective version of MinGW.
>
> Very briefly put, I came from a background of Windows tools: OpenWatcom
> C++ (used to be the best optimizer on Windows), Microsoft Visual C++, and
> back in the ancient days of early DOS and NT, JPI, Borland, and Metaware
> C++.  I had next to no experience with the MinGW toolchain and had only
> very little experience with actual use of GCC.  So everything was pretty
> overwhelming at first.  I started using C++ in 1990 so I am not exactly a
> newbie.  I have been off the C++ path for a decade, though, because better
> languages have popped up (Python, then C#).  I knew nothing about CMake and
> was, like most Windows users are going to be, a stranger to the whole
> ordeal of Unix-on-Windows (incl. Cygwin and MinGW).
>

I don't know if I'd call MinGW "unix-on-windows."  It's just a port of GCC
with Windows headers/libraries.  You don't need to use bash or any other
unix programs.

>
> I have so far tried pretty much every path in the maze that LLVM's support
> of Windows is: I*ve tried building with MSVC, I've tried building with
> Mingw64, I've tried building with a 64-bit edition of Clang, and now I am
> down to the last desirable choice: 32-bit MinGW.  My 32-bit Clang++ is
> building as we speak.  I tried with a 64-bit build of Clang, built using
> MinGW64, but it fails on some linker errors (the report about that
> erronously sent to this mailing list earlier today), so I hope, pray, and
> expect that at the very least, the 32-bit Clang++ built from MinGW32 will
> work as expected (that is, it is possible to compile and link and execute a
> non-trivial program using Clang32).
>

MSVC ABI support in Clang is very incomplete as this point.  MinGW32
support works fairly well, at least in my experience.  MinGW64 is a bit of
a problem at the moment because of GCC versions.  Clang is hard-coded to
search for headers in GCC version-specific locations.  For the dgn version
of MinGW64, GCC 4.7.1 is used (in the latest release), but Clang only looks
up for up to 4.7.0 at the moment.  That's why you're running into issues.
 If I manually setup paths, I can build C++ programs using Clang using the
MinGW64 headers/libraries:

$ clang++ foo.cpp -o foo.exe -I "c:\mingw64\include\c++\4.7.1" -I
"c:\mingw64\include\c++\4.7.1\x86_64-w64-mingw32" -I
c:\mingw64\mingw\include

>
> But the past two weeks have been spent on setting up a Windows 7 x64
> MinGW64 buildbot slave and then working a bit on my own project (I'm
> translating 25 KLOC of C# to C++ so as to be able to use LLVM as my
> backend) and then playing around with Clang.
>
> My view is that the aspiring Clang++ Windows user is in for a nightmare
> reverse walk through a night time minefield with both eyes shut.
>

Unfortunately, yes.

>
> So, I am wondering if there is anything that can be done to help this
> situation?   I'd love great ideas from you guys, even though I am getting
> rather used to getting no responses to my mails ;-)  I am willing to invest
> considerable amount of time into helping with this, I just cannot do
> serious C++ coding at this point because I am yet too rusty in C++ and
> because I am busy, busy, busy with my own project (a compiler that uses
> LLVM as its backend).
>
> I propose these things:
>
> 1. Priority is put into making MinGW64 work, if the problem I reported
> earlier today is related to LLVM/Clang (link time errors related to some
> section).  This is not that important, though.
> 2. If nobody (including licenses) object to it, I'd like to make two
> unofficial Windows distributions of Clang: clang-3.2-win32 and
> clang-3.2-win64.  Both would make use of the MinGW toolchains and both
> would be shipped as ready-made 7-zip archives that could be extracted
> anywhere and used directly from there without further installations.  I am
> thinking of including the MinGW header files (once the warnings reported
> when they are included are gone) so as to produce a complete retail product
> that can be used without any technical knowledge of the LLVM and Clang
> components. I think this would bring lots and lots of attention to LLVM and
> Clang, and then hopefully pay off in skilled developers joining the cause.
>  I am also thinking of setting up an automated build system so that they
> can be built once a day and automatically be published on my own website.
>

As long as you do not violate any licenses, this should be fine.  I would
love to see such a distribution!

> 3. I will eagerly hunt down every opportunity to document Windows
> specifics a bit more.  I have received no feedback, whatsoever, on my
> Windows build document so I take it that it is not to the dev group's
> liking.  So be it.  Life goes on.  But how about a Windows section in the
> FAQ?  The word Windows isn't even mentioned?!  Most of the stuff I've ran
> into ought to be easy to describe over the course of a couple of hours and
> then newcomers would save days and weeks of frustrations, dead ends, and
> mines exploding around them.
>

To be honest, I just haven't looked at it in detail yet.  I plan to, but
most developers here are very busy and it takes time to get reviews.
 Please bump the topic after a couple days of no replies.

> 4. Please give me your ideas for how I can contribute to the Windows
> support without actually hacking on LLVM and Clang (yet)!
>

File bugs for what doesn't work.

5. Full support for libc++ on Win32/Win64.

>
> I know that you guys are awesomely skilled and are really great at what
> you are doing.  No doubt about that.  But I think you lack
> marketing/strategic thinking.  Think of it a bit like I do:
>
> 1. 97.7 percent of the world's computer users are Windows users.
> 2. 2 percent of the world's computer users are Linux users.
> 3. 0.3 percent of the world's computer users use other Unices.
>

And the vast majority of those Windows users will use MSVC instead of
Clang.  Most will get by just fine with the Microsoft compiler, and they
have no reason to really choose Clang, unless they want it for better ISO
C++ compliance, or cross-compiling.

>
> The numbers are grasped out of thin air so as to illustrate my point:
> Windows ought to be a very high priority because it will eventually pay off
> handsomely by increasing the size of the developer group by a factor of
> ten, if only you play the cards right and offer neat, easy-to-use,
> convenient Windows support.  Besides, it is my impression that the
> non-Windows support is in general pretty mature.  Clang could very well
> step in as THE alternative to Microsoft Visual C++.  OpenWatcom is slowly
> dying (very poor ISO C++ support) and Intel's C++ compiler is only used by
> specialists, as far as I can tell.
>

Clang could definitely fill a niche market here, but it needs the support
of talented Windows developers.

>
> I suspect that some of you might hold the view that Windows users are
> noobs (something I've worked hard to confirm ;-) and that the really great
> guys are all doing Unix.  Not so.  Statistically speaking, the vast
> majority of coders out there are on Windows, so statistically speaking, the
> vast majority of the truly brilliant dev people are on Windows.  So it
> makes a lot of sense trying to attract them!  Not that I am implying that I
> myself are anywhere near brilliant.  I'm just saying that overlooking
> Windows might be the greatest strategical debt you have incurred yet.
>

I doubt that's the general feeling...

>
> P.S. Please think of the above as a wake-up call and my dedication to the
> great future that LLVM/Clang should have.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Mikael
> -- Love Thy Frog (yes, frogs are worth loving, even though most people
> don't seem to grok that).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> LLVMdev at cs.uiuc.edu         http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/llvmdev
>
>

-- 

Thanks,

Justin Holewinski
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/cfe-dev/attachments/20120611/489df3d6/attachment.html>