[llvm-devmeeting] llvm-devmeeting Digest, Vol 32, Issue 3

Tue Mar 1 08:45:47 PST 2016

Thank you to many of you for your fair considerations to my approach.

I apologise to have caused any offense or irritation as the case may be, certainly in John's opinion. ;)

I am aware my approach is unorthodox to a 'technical' mailing list, but my intention was indeed targeted.

Of course I have specific opportunities, but e-mailing a list around would indeed be mindless spamming. Instead I have taken the initiative to attend the conference (aware that it's extremely technical!) and aim to not only learn, but network with contributors and professionals to help them find interesting and relevant jobs, thus helping them to become more active contributors across the LLVM community.

Thank you,

Amanda

Amanda Rayworth-Kiernan
Account Manager

MRL Consulting Group
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-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-devmeeting [mailto:llvm-devmeeting-bounces at lists.llvm.org] On Behalf Of via llvm-devmeeting
Sent: 01 March 2016 16:25
To: llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org
Subject: llvm-devmeeting Digest, Vol 32, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Attention moderator: Spammer needs to be      removed.
      (David Blaikie via llvm-devmeeting)
   2. Re: Attention moderator: Spammer needs to be      removed.
      (David Blaikie via llvm-devmeeting)
   3. Re: Attention moderator: Spammer needs to be      removed.
      (John Randolph via llvm-devmeeting)
   4. Re: Attention moderator: Spammer needs to be      removed.
      (Tanya Lattner via llvm-devmeeting)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:20:05 -0800
From: David Blaikie via llvm-devmeeting
        <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
To: James Molloy <James.Molloy at arm.com>
Cc: LLVM DevMeeting list <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-devmeeting] Attention moderator: Spammer needs to
        be      removed.
Message-ID:
        <CAENS6Eu8si6mTkhSRE09ipP1Ue5Gvh=j7eOx_Tojjq7au2aS2w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

+1 to that - the moderation is manual anyway, so it's not like we can't
pick/choose what meets our own human spam tolerance. We don't just have to choose "let them all in or block everything that looks a bit like it could be spam"

(I think this instance doesn't meet the bar for the sort of thing we want on the list (& I could see just outright banning the user as they don't seem to be a contributing member or anything, or having an off-list conversation with them, I don't feel terribly strongly in any direction) - not sure about what it means for this sort of thing in person at
conferences)

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 8:16 AM, James Molloy <James.Molloy at arm.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I agree with David and Renato. I don’t think this classes perfectly as
> spam because it is targeted, however it’s borderline because perhaps
> it’s not quite targeted *enough*.
>
> The mailing list has been active for a long time, this is not a bot
> and we can take remedial action if the list does get spammed,
> therefore I don’t think we should come down hard with the banhammer in this case.
>
> James
>
> On 1 Mar 2016, at 16:11, John Randolph via llvm-devmeeting <
> llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> I disagree with this on the strongest possible terms.  I have
> moderated mailing lists with tens of thousands of subscribers, and
> once you let the spammers in, they will proliferate.
>
> -jcr
>
> On Mar 1, 2016, at 8:09 AM, David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 8:04 AM, John Criswell via llvm-devmeeting <
> llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> My thoughts on the matter is that such an email is on topic provided
>> that the person seeking employees is specifically looking for an
>> employee for a position that uses LLVM or one of its related subprojects (e.g., Clang).
>> My rationale is that we allow job postings on our lists for
>> LLVM-related positions, and so this seems very similar.  My problem
>> with the post is that it does not specifically state that the person
>> is seeking employees for an LLVM-related position; if we allow such
>> posts, we should require that in the future.
>>
>
> +1 to all that, and that's generally been the stance in the past. (I
> believe Chris Lattner was called out a bit when he posted a Swift
> posting without much tie in to LLVM, for example - and that was later
> clarified/corrected to include the LLVM context in that posting)
>
> That being said, is there any benefit to the /meeting/ list being
> publicly postable? Perhaps, like llvm-bugs, it should be announce-only
> & leave the discussion to the -dev lists? (most of the announcements
> are cross-posted to the dev lists anyway, so I assume the meeting list
> is just for those interested in the meeting, but not all the chatter?)
>
>
>> That said, I'd like to hear what others think.  Is my reasoning
>> reasonable, or should we take a hard line against such posts?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John Criswell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/1/16 10:57 AM, Renato Golin via llvm-devmeeting wrote:
>>
>>> On 1 March 2016 at 15:11, John Randolph via llvm-devmeeting
>>> <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just got spam from one "Amanda Rayworth-Kiernan”, a headhunter who
>>>> apparently sent her spam to this list.   I haven’t checked whether the list
>>>> has an explicit anti-spamming policy, but I’m sure I’m not the only
>>>> person here who doesn’t want headhunters abusing the list in this manner.
>>>>
>>> I got the same email.
>>>
>>> She is *very* specific, and targeting attendees of the next LLVM
>>> meeting, but doesn't seem to be recruiting for any particular
>>> position, but just asking for a coffee break chat. I take it this is
>>> more common in other less technical conferences, though.
>>>
>>> I agree the list admin should at least send her a reminder of what
>>> the list is for.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> --renato
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> llvm-devmeeting mailing list
>>> llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org
>>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-devmeeting
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Criswell
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of Computer Science, University of Rochester
>> http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/criswell
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> llvm-devmeeting mailing list
>> llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org
>> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-devmeeting
>>
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:21:55 -0800
From: David Blaikie via llvm-devmeeting
        <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
To: John Randolph <jcr at mac.com>
Cc: LLVM DevMeeting list <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-devmeeting] Attention moderator: Spammer needs to
        be      removed.
Message-ID:
        <CAENS6Ev9RoQMJeHD4StXePQc-hak6YWdJc78v9599LmE1uZBdw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 8:18 AM, John Randolph <jcr at mac.com> wrote:

> The division between spam and on-topic messages isn’t whether the spam is
> targeted.   It’s a commercial message to a technical list:  IOW, it’s spam.
>

That is decidedly /not/ the bar we as a community have decided on. We accept/want to allow relevant job postings to the LLVM community. We've done this before and will continue to do so. This helps the LLVM community proliferate - it allows hobbyist/part time contributors to find jobs on the project and become more active contributors.

- David

>
> -jcr
>
> > On Mar 1, 2016, at 8:16 AM, James Molloy <James.Molloy at arm.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree with David and Renato. I don’t think this classes perfectly
> > as
> spam because it is targeted, however it’s borderline because perhaps
> it’s not quite targeted *enough*.
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:23:10 -0800
From: John Randolph via llvm-devmeeting
        <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
To: David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com>
Cc: LLVM DevMeeting list <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-devmeeting] Attention moderator: Spammer needs to
        be      removed.
Message-ID: <642A6EEE-E353-48A6-A71F-80273077A200 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

it isn’t a job posting.   It’s a “come meet the spammer” invitation.  I allowed job postings on the Cocoa-dev list when I moderated it, I did not allow anything like this.

-jcr

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 8:21 AM, David Blaikie <dblaikie at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 8:18 AM, John Randolph <jcr at mac.com <mailto:jcr at mac.com>> wrote:
> The division between spam and on-topic messages isn’t whether the spam is targeted.   It’s a commercial message to a technical list:  IOW, it’s spam.
>
> That is decidedly /not/ the bar we as a community have decided on. We accept/want to allow relevant job postings to the LLVM community. We've done this before and will continue to do so. This helps the LLVM community proliferate - it allows hobbyist/part time contributors to find jobs on the project and become more active contributors.
>
> - David
>
>
> -jcr
>
> > On Mar 1, 2016, at 8:16 AM, James Molloy <James.Molloy at arm.com <mailto:James.Molloy at arm.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree with David and Renato. I don’t think this classes perfectly as spam because it is targeted, however it’s borderline because perhaps it’s not quite targeted *enough*.
>
>

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:26:10 -0800
From: Tanya Lattner via llvm-devmeeting
        <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
To: John Randolph <jcr at mac.com>
Cc: "llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org" <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-devmeeting] Attention moderator: Spammer needs to
        be      removed.
Message-ID: <495F49A7-80A5-499C-B804-50E3F64B0A5F at nondot.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8

This list was created for LLVM dev meeting communication and to ask questions about meetings. It is not for job postings or recruiters to advertise. It is a very specific list and low traffic.

 I will discuss with the poster.

We have historically allowed job postings on llvm-dev or cafe-dev as long as they are LLVM/Clang specific. This is different than a generic recruiter email but yes one could make parallels. These job postings have been pretty small in number but if they increased, I would suggest a new list that allows job ads and *potentially* recruiter postings like this. I haven't seen a need for this yet but it's open for discussion.

-Tanya

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 7:11 AM, John Randolph via llvm-devmeeting <llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> I just got spam from one "Amanda Rayworth-Kiernan”, a headhunter who apparently sent her spam to this list.   I haven’t checked whether the list has an explicit anti-spamming policy, but I’m sure I’m not the only person here who doesn’t want headhunters abusing the list in this manner.
>
> -jcr
>
> _______________________________________________
> llvm-devmeeting mailing list
> llvm-devmeeting at lists.llvm.org
> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-devmeeting

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