[llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
Philip Reames via llvm-dev
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Mon Nov 18 10:05:16 PST 2019
On 11/18/19 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev wrote:
> The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in
> the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't
> working as well for new people.
>
> I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of
> any/all social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to
> be utterly terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).
>
> My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete
> fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea,
> tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others
> I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!
I definitely remember this fear from when I was just getting started.
By now, I've made a fool of myself publicly enough times to not worry
about it any more, but initially, this was really intimidating.
I do hear a lot of discussion in person and see some email that doesn't
show up on lists specifically because of the public record aspect. I
don't know that the current tools proposal address this, but a
specifically transitive channel which *isn't* archived might be worth
thinking about.
>
> So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
> Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)
>
> I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.
>
> But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The
> way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in
> importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come
> and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be
> working well.
>
> Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more
> accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar
> with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the
> mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we
> should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing
> new users would see these days?
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar
> to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email
> lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially
> set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them
> and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things
> you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions,
> although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than
> you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people
> you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead
> of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll
> collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and
> mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar,
> difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long
> been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback
> from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a
> community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my
> precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out
> there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and
> Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up
> both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://llvm.discourse.group/
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great
> for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the
> groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help
> moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out
> with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to
> reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific
> things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
> place, etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
> https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org <http://forums.llvm.org>.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
> seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I
> think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists
> are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure
> challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for
> several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful
> email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop
> for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways
> around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges
> this has posed to people less established in the community was a
> real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I
> really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address
> these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for
> organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these
> things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her
> help, especially around Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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>
>
> --
>
> Neil Henning
> Senior Software Engineer Compiler
> unity.com <http://unity.com>
>
>
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