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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/18/19 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via
llvm-dev wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">The lists are working well for the people who are
already invested in the community though - as was identified by
Chandler they aren't working as well for new people.
<div><br>
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<div>I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero
fear of any/all social situations, and I've always found this
mailing list to be utterly terrifying (thus I've been a 10
year mostly-lurker).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a
complete fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing
a stupid idea, tarishing what little reputation I might have
had. I know from others I've talked to over the years this
isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!</div>
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<p>I definitely remember this fear from when I was just getting
started. By now, I've made a fool of myself publicly enough times
to not worry about it any more, but initially, this was really
intimidating. <br>
</p>
<p>I do hear a lot of discussion in person and see some email that
doesn't show up on lists specifically because of the public record
aspect. I don't know that the current tools proposal address
this, but a specifically transitive channel which *isn't* archived
might be worth thinking about. <br>
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<div>So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the
community.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03
PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Since
it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)<br>
<br>
I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something
else.<br>
<br>
But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to
me. The<br>
way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second
in<br>
importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend
to come<br>
and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to
be<br>
working well.<br>
<br>
Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists
more<br>
accessible? When I meet university students, they're often
familiar<br>
with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of
the<br>
mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions.
Maybe we<br>
should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first
thing<br>
new users would see these days?<br>
<br>
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev<br>
<<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello everyone,<br>
><br>
> Short version:<br>
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat
(similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums
(similar to email lists):<br>
> <a href="https://discord.gg/xS7Z362" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://discord.gg/xS7Z362</a><br>
> <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://llvm.discourse.group/</a><br>
><br>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only
partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to
improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues
you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have
dedicated feedback channels.<br>
><br>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions,
although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more
than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure
the people you're having the discussion with are fine using
Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't
work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't
lost.<br>
><br>
> Longer version & more details:<br>
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting,
folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems
cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying
to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for
chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are
unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers.
While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these
areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and
important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I
have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]<br>
><br>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options
out there and the most promising ones were Discord for
chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and
I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server.
You can find them here:<br>
> <a href="https://discord.gg/xS7Z362" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://discord.gg/xS7Z362</a><br>
> <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://llvm.discourse.group/</a><br>
><br>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be
great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each
of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people
to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like
to help out with a specific set of improvements to these,
don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you
set up. Some specific things we're already working on:<br>
><br>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.<br>
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search
in one place, etc.<br>
><br>
> See the plan here: <a
href="https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61</a><br>
><br>
> Moving Discourse to <a href="http://forums.llvm.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">forums.llvm.org</a>.<br>
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while
preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.<br>
><br>
><br>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to
seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well,
I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email
lists are more effective, but also have had serious
infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc.
Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available
and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse
long-term instead of the email lists.<br>
><br>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT
workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set
in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds
of challenges this has posed to people less established in the
community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up
like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps
start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge
thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for
helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the
work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to
do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.<br>
><br>
> -Chandler<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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<div
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Henning</div>
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