[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct

Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Thu May 5 15:06:04 PDT 2016

> On May 5, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Renato Golin <renato.golin at linaro.org> wrote:
> On 5 May 2016 at 22:19, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev
> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> Having a code of conduct like this is just as bad as having no code of conduct at all. It trivializes the importance of a code of conduct and its pretty much impossible to enforce.
> The same way you feel about this code, we feel about the alternative.
> It's only a matter of perspective.
>> After observing what is happening in many other communities in regards to women in technology, I would be much more likely to participate in a community that actually has a well thought out and meaningful code of conduct.
> I think I have expressed enough of my desire to get women into STEM.
> If not, let me reiterate: 50/50, nothing less will do.
> However, I wonder how much of that has ever had the risk to leaking
> into our community?
> My argument to Hal is that, none of that happened overnight. For that
> to happen to us, our community would have to be permissive to abusive
> behaviour for months, or years, and we'd notice a lot sooner than
> that.
> The worse cases I've seen was the kernel and docker, both fairly loose
> communities, where it didn't seem to have *any* consensus on behaviour
> whatsoever. We're not like that.
> When kernel folks come to us and start swearing, we ask them to stop,
> then we ignore their emails. That's better than and CoC could ever ask
> for.
> So, here's a turn on the tables...
> * Can anyone prove that a CoC would be more effective against abuse
> than the already very effective and cost free method we use?
> * Can anyone come up with a threat that the current consensus would
> not protect us from, and at the same time, a CoC would be the *only*
> alternative?
> * Can anyone prove that, just writing "we don't condone abuse, let us
> know" is in *any* way (including legal) worse than a text that was
> written by someone else and people seemed to like?
> Unless we have clear answers to those questions, Occam's razor tells
> me we should just be our good selves and show people with behaviour,
> not words, how nice we are.

The point is that you wouldn’t know that from looking at the alternative code of conduct. I would need to spend months pouring through mailing lists posts and watching the community to feel its a good and safe place. One of the many reasons a code of conduct is useful is to show outsiders what our community is like, what we think is acceptable and what is not. They read that, then they know how they are expected to behave and how they will be treated. They are much more likely to be a part of that community. Is it the only reason people join a community? No, but unfortunately its becoming a big part of the decision (especially for those in the minority). 

We can argue into we are blue in the face about which is more effective in preventing abuse. There is no way to prove this 100% one way or another. But there are other goals of a CoC that can not be ignored and are not met by the alternative CoC.


> cheers,
> --renato

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