[llvm-dev] Resuming the discussion of establishing an LLVM code of conduct

Renato Golin via llvm-dev llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
Thu May 5 05:11:14 PDT 2016

On 5 May 2016 at 12:59, David Chisnall <David.Chisnall at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> You’re conflating opinions about things with opinions about people (so is the current CoC, which is why the wording needs to be improved - a point that I think that we both strongly agree on).  In the case of your example, if a person is going to be offended by opinions unrelated to either themselves or the subject at hand, then I’d agree that they are no great loss to the community.


> Developer X thinks that Brazilians are idiots and only ever get technical jobs because of nepotism.

He's not too far off... :)

> Now, you’ve got a pretty thick skin and I’d imagine that you’d decide that he’s an idiot that whose negative opinion of you is worth as much as a positive opinion from some other people.  But if some other Brazilians come to LLVM, see his name on the mailing lists, and from this find his G+ account, do you think that they’re going to perceive LLVM as a community that will welcome them?

I think they'd be generalising the behaviour of the community by the
behaviour of one person, idiot or not.

I'm a big advocate to let people use their own brains, which seems to
be out of fashion nowadays.

The best way to solve that problem is not taking any official action
against the bigot, but showing how much *not* like that we are by all
behaving nicely, as we do, in the lists and events.

> Replace Brazilians with women or some other minority group in the above example.  Would you want to be a member of a community that was happy to silently endorse these opinions?

You're conflating disregard with endorsement. :)

Are we going to keep a list of all the idiots (including me) that
belong to this community? I have voiced many strong and negative
opinions about gun ownership, Donald Trump and government idiocy on G+
and I hope no one assumed that was personal or even that I was
generalising any of that. My opinion of your code will be no less if
you support any of those.

> Which are pretty minor.  The LLVM project doesn’t give access to much useful infrastructure to community members.

A ban on the mailing list could cost someone their jobs. When they're
rightfully enforced, that's fine, but when the result of troll code
abuse, it's most certainly not.

> Do you stop being a member of the LLVM community as soon as you stop posting on the mailing lists?  Judging a community by the actions of its members is what humans do.

I'm a member of so many communities, that it would be impossible for
me to behave like every other code of conduct enforces me to.

This is not just about judgement, but about how far can the code go.


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