[llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tue Nov 19 09:51:28 PST 2019

I suspected it may be related to Discord's heavy emphasis on role-based
permissions, but it would be good to get an official answer.  Slack
definitely does have administrators, and Administrators can kick people out
of the slack, which...  might be sufficient?  I don't know . From a
usability standpoint, Discord is vastly inferior to Slack so I think it's
worth doing this comparison

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:38 AM Finkel, Hal J. <hfinkel at anl.gov> wrote:

>
> On 11/19/19 9:09 AM, Zachary Turner via llvm-dev wrote:
>
> Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure
> why that keeps being overlooked
>
>
> My understanding is this is because Slack does not have good moderation
> tools. I'm unfamiliar with further details in this regard.
>
>  -Hal
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:07 AM Zachary Turner <zturner at roblox.com> wrote:
>
>> But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>>> LLVM's discussions
>>> To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bjoern said:
>>>
>>> " I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was
>>> one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
>>> reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
>>> think... this was bad"
>>>
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> Well said Bjoern.
>>>
>>> That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
>>> search is horrible
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey :/
>>>>
>>>> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
>>>> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the
>>>> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not
>>>> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
>>>> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
>>>> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about
>>>> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
>>>> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking
>>>> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous
>>>> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
>>>> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that
>>>> rarely happened.
>>>> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>>>>
>>>> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
>>>> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list
>>>> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well,
>>>> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if
>>>> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>>>>
>>>> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina
>>>> Brooks via llvm-dev
>>>> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
>>>> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>>>> LLVM's discussions
>>>>
>>>> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
>>>> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label
>>>> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns
>>>> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients
>>>> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards
>>>> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy.
>>>> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are
>>>> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is
>>>> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
>>>> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
>>>> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat
>>>> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
>>>> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
>>>> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related
>>>> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit
>>>> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as
>>>> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello everyone,
>>>> >
>>>> > Short version:
>>>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to
>>>> IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>>> >
>>>> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>>> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>>> > badf539d389685869
>>>> >
>>>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set
>>>> up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out
>>>> to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also,
>>>> both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
>>>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
>>>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
>>>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
>>>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>>>> >
>>>> > Longer version & more details:
>>>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>>>> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>>>> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>>>> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
>>>> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
>>>> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
>>>> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>>>> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
>>>> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>>> >
>>>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there
>>>> and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>>>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
>>>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>>> >
>>>> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>>> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>>> > badf539d389685869
>>>> >
>>>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
>>>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>>>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
>>>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
>>>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we
>>>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>>> >
>>>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one
>>>> place, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> > See the plan here:
>>>> >
>>>> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
>>>> > 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
>>>> > 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
>>>> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>>>> >
>>>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>>>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
>>>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
>>>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
>>>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
>>>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
>>>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
>>>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>>> >
>>>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>>>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>>>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>>>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
>>>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>>>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
>>>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>>>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
>>>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around
>>>> Discord bots.
>>>> >
>>>> > -Chandler
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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>>
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>
> --
> Hal Finkel
> Lead, Compiler Technology and Programming Languages
> Leadership Computing Facility
> Argonne National Laboratory
>
>
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