[llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tue Nov 19 07:09:41 PST 2019

Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure why
that keeps being overlooked

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:07 AM Zachary Turner <zturner at roblox.com> wrote:

> But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>> LLVM's discussions
>> To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>
>>
>>
>> Bjoern said:
>>
>> " I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was
>> one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
>> reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
>> think... this was bad"
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Well said Bjoern.
>>
>> That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
>> search is horrible
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey :/
>>>
>>> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
>>> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the
>>> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not
>>> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
>>> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
>>> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about
>>> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
>>> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking
>>> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous
>>> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
>>> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that
>>> rarely happened.
>>> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>>>
>>> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
>>> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list
>>> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well,
>>> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if
>>> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>>>
>>> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina
>>> Brooks via llvm-dev
>>> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
>>> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
>>> LLVM's discussions
>>>
>>> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
>>> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label
>>> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns
>>> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients
>>> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards
>>> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy.
>>> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are
>>> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is
>>> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
>>> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
>>> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat
>>> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
>>> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
>>> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related
>>> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit
>>> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as
>>> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello everyone,
>>> >
>>> > Short version:
>>> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
>>> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>> > badf539d389685869
>>> >
>>> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
>>> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
>>> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
>>> services have dedicated feedback channels.
>>> >
>>> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
>>> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
>>> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
>>> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
>>> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>>> >
>>> > Longer version & more details:
>>> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
>>> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
>>> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
>>> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
>>> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
>>> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
>>> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
>>> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
>>> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>>> >
>>> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
>>> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
>>> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
>>> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
>>> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
>>> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
>>> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
>>> > badf539d389685869
>>> >
>>> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
>>> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
>>> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
>>> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
>>> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we
>>> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>>> >
>>> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
>>> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
>>> etc.
>>> >
>>> > See the plan here:
>>> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
>>> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
>>> > 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
>>> > 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
>>> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>>> >
>>> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
>>> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
>>> similarly email-focused workflow.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
>>> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
>>> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
>>> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
>>> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
>>> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
>>> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>>> >
>>> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
>>> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
>>> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
>>> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
>>> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
>>> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
>>> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
>>> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
>>> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around
>>> Discord bots.
>>> >
>>> > -Chandler
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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