[llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Mon Nov 18 22:49:29 PST 2019

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's
discussions
To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>

Bjoern said:

" I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was
one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next
reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I
think... this was bad"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said Bjoern.

That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord
search is horrible

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:

> Hey :/
>
> It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an
> newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the
> mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not
> sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
> I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby
> (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about
> Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty
> difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking
> questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous
> subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/
> Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that
> rarely happened.
> Also the general chats were kinda silent...
>
> Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where
> questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list
> kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well,
> but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if
> the subject is of interest for me or not...
>
> Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> On Behalf Of Kristina
> Brooks via llvm-dev
> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
> To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com>
> Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for
> LLVM's discussions
>
> While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if
> one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label
> emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns
> over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients
> and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards
> 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy.
> While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are
> another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is
> relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC
> clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to
> Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat
> stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat
> out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively
> enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related
> to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit
> provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as
> Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Short version:
> > I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC)
> and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> > badf539d389685869
> >
> > Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up
> and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to
> this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both
> services have dedicated feedback channels.
> >
> > Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try
> not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the
> lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion
> with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse
> doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
> >
> > Longer version & more details:
> > During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> > expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> > non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> > about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> > lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> > intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> > to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> > compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> > means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
> >
> > We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and
> the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for
> longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord
> and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> > https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> > &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> > badf539d389685869
> >
> > There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for
> folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in
> Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both
> Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of
> improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we
> can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
> >
> > Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> > Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place,
> etc.
> >
> > See the plan here:
> > https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> > 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> > 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> > 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> > 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
> >
> > Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org.
> > Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a
> similarly email-focused workflow.
> >
> >
> > We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try
> using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the
> bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have
> had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of
> spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very
> powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously
> consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
> >
> > I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for
> giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these
> kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to
> people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a
> lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also
> helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to
> Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this
> message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set
> up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around
> Discord bots.
> >
> > -Chandler
> > _______________________________________________
> > LLVM Developers mailing list
> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
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