[llvm-dev] [cfe-dev] GN build roundtable summary; adding GN build files to the repo

Tue Nov 6 09:19:46 PST 2018

Yeah, I don't feel super strongly about the name or location if it's a
single directory entry point. Not sure if/where it should be documented (if
it needs web documentation - rather than or in addition to a README in that
directory) - don't really want to muddy the waters in the official docs as
others have mentioned. I'm OK with it going in-tree under those conditions,
FWIW.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 3:10 AM Nico Weber via cfe-dev <
cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:

> The value in having them somewhere in-tree is that it's easier for people
> collaborate on these files, and it's way lower setup overhead if someone
> wants to try it out. If people prefer llvm/util over llvm/experimental,
> that's fine with me.
>
> There would only be a single directory that will contain build files for
> all of llvm, clang, lld, etc. The build files would be in
> llvm/whatever/gn/tree/{llvm,clang,lld,...}/... ("tree" can be any name).
> That's not the most natural way to use gn, but I agree that having BUILD.gn
> files scattered all over the tree could make it look like gn is supported
> at some level.
>
> If adding the files in an isolated directory still ends up being confusing
> in practice, we can move them out at that point. But I'd like to start with
> the simpler way and see if that's good enough.
>
> On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 8:22 PM Justin Bogner <mail at justinbogner.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Nico Weber via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> writes:
>> > If I read this correctly, there isn't much opposition to landing the gn
>> > files as long as it's very clear that regular devs aren't supposed to
>> > update them and that it's clear that they're experimental
>> >
>> > The main concerns I've heard so far:
>> >
>> > - Having two build systems is confusing. I can see this, but I think
>> > putting the gn files below llvm/experimental/gn (instead of right into
>> the
>> > source, like I currently have) and updating GN.rst to explicitly say
>> > "Reviewers should not ask patch authors to update gn files in addition
>> to
>> > the cmake files" will address this.
>>
>> I haven't been following this discussion and I don't really know
>> anything about GN, but I'm not very convinced by this.
>>
>> I'm opposed to adding a second build system in general. We all remember
>> having two build systems before and it's a pain keep track of as well as
>> a documentation nightmare in telling people yet more ways to do
>> things. Our docs are already confusing enough given that we currently
>> support two completely different layouts of source directories for
>> cmake.
>>
>> I suppose putting it somewhere under utils/ as a kind of tool for people
>> who want to use it like we do with text editor support and such things
>> wouldn't be the end of the world, but the value of that is pretty
>> limited if you're explicitly opting them out of community maintenance.
>>
>> If the build files can be maintained in their own directory, and will
>> only be updated by some set of people who are using them, why not track
>> them in a separate source repo? This way when a breaking change happens
>> your build system could still be made to work for the commits in between
>> the time that happens and the GN files are updated, since you'd be
>> maintaining a separate mapping of which versions work together.
>>
>> > - Having a few people care about the GN build means these people won't
>> > improve the cmake build. I think this has some merit (but I did clean up
>> > parts of the cmake build a bit while reading all our cmake code to
>> create
>> > the gn build for example, and I have several ideas about improving the
>> > cmake build I want to implement at some point; and it's also not a given
>> > that the folks who may or may not end up working on the GN build would
>> have
>> > worked on the cmake build). However, this is true independently of where
>> > the GN build files are stored.
>> >
>> > - GN isn't a cmake replacement, for distro reasons and whatnot. I
>> > wholeheartedly agree with this. Maybe GN will become better here, but
>> cmake
>> > is ubiquitous _today_, and it's backed by a company who's interested in
>> > keeping it around, so it will be around for a long time. I think this is
>> > cmake's biggest strength. That's why I'm not proposing on replacing the
>> > cmake build. If the GN build at some point is way better (compiler-rt,
>> > lldb, etc added; out-of-tree build support; GN itself gets a real distro
>> > story; ...) then this _may_ be different in a few years, at which point
>> we
>> > could reconsider. I think this is unlikely to happen.
>> >
>> > (I still don't see that any of these problems are being solved by having
>> > this in an overlay or a separate fork.)
>> >
>> > And again, It's a real possibility that we check this in and it turns
>> out
>> > the people who are interested in don't feel it's all that useful, it
>> > bitrots, and we delete it again. That's cool, no harm done. I think we
>> > should have a very high standard for replacing the supported build
>> system
>> > (cmake), but I think it's cool to have a low bar for people
>> experimenting
>> > with unsupported build systems, as long as they get deleted if not
>> used. If
>> > someone wanted to a, say, llvm/experimental/meson to see how that would
>> > feel, I think that'd be super cool too for example.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 2:06 AM Dean Michael Berris <
>> dean.berris at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think this is how, after moving to a monorepo, it may be feasible to
>> >> get this in a separate fork.
>> >>
>> >> Granted the Git Monorepo + GitHub happens, we can even make it so that
>> >> the GN build is a branch on the official git repository, which can
>> >> track the mainline development.
>> >> On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:49 AM David Blaikie via llvm-dev
>> >> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Any easy way to do this as some kind of overlay, so they GN files
>> >> wouldn't live in the LLVM repository, but in a separate one?
>> >> >
>> >> > (this might avoid some of the community discussion - though would
>> >> perhaps still likely have the issue I see as most significant: With a
>> >> sufficient number of developers using GN, the rate of build breaks due
>> to
>> >> those developers missing CMake file updates might rise to be a bit of a
>> >> drag on the LLVM project - though I don't think that's likely to ever
>> be a
>> >> huge deal, just an annoyance)
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:19 AM Nico Weber via cfe-dev <
>> >> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> first things first: If you're happy with cmake, you can stop reading
>> >> now. Nobody is proposing that LLVM moves off cmake, and nobody is
>> proposing
>> >> anything that's causing people using cmake more work.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> At the LLVM conference, I gave a lightning talk [1] about using GN
>> [2]
>> >> to build LLVM and clang. cmake is great for many use cases, but in my
>> >> opinion local day-to-day development isn't one of them. So I wrote GN
>> build
>> >> files for LLVM and clang, enough to make `ninja check-llvm check-clang
>> >> check-lld` build everything needed for these three test suites and
>> that all
>> >> tests pass. This works on Linux, Mac, Win hosts targeting X86, ARM,
>> >> AArch64. You can see them at [3].
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I had been worried that it would be a lot of work to keep the build
>> >> files up to date, but I've been using this for all my LLVM/clang/lld
>> >> development the last 8 months, and it turned out to not be a big
>> problem --
>> >> LLVM's build files don't change very often, and GN build files are a
>> >> pleasure to work with in my opinion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I gave the lightning talk just to talk about my personal workflow,
>> but
>> >> there was a lot of interest. We had a roundtable on the next day, and
>> about
>> >> 20 people said they'd be interested in using this for their development
>> >> too. The main request was that the .gn files are checked in upstream,
>> so
>> >> that we can collaborate on keeping them working. Two to three orgs even
>> >> said they'd be interested in moving their buildbots to GN.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As mentioned at the top, the intention here is not to replace cmake,
>> >> only to offer an opt-in alternative for people who are interested in
>> it.
>> >> Keeping the GN build going would be the responsibility of people using
>> it,
>> >> not of the general LLVM community. If this fails to find use and
>> bitrots,
>> >> we can easily remove it again.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Are there any concerns with checking in GN files? I've put some
>> initial
>> >> docs for the GN build at https://reviews.llvm.org/D53944 ; it
>> describes
>> >> what the GN build is and is not, what its advantages are (speed and
>> easier
>> >> configurability), and some points about the philosophy behind the LLVM
>> GN
>> >> build.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If folks are generally ok with GN files living in-tree, I'll start
>> >> sending patches for gradually adding gn files through the regular
>> review
>> >> process.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If having a BUILD.gn file in every directory being confusing is a
>> >> concern, GN has the concept of a "secondary tree" so that all GN files
>> >> could be below llvm/gn/tree/{llvm,clang,lld,...}.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Cheers,
>> >> >> Nico
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1: https://llvm.org/devmtg/2018-10/talk-abstracts.html#lt2
>> >> >> 2: https://gn.googlesource.com/gn , https://is.gd/gn_intro
>> >> >> 3:
>> >>
>> https://github.com/llvm-project/llvm-project-20170507/compare/master...nico:gn
>> >> , click "Files Changed" to see the GN files.
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> cfe-dev mailing list
>> >> >> cfe-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> >> >> http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> >> > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Dean
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>> > http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>
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