[LLVMdev] Using LLVM to compile Objective-C on an Xbox 360

Thu May 27 11:24:51 PDT 2010

FYI, DevNet is for the SCE (i.e. Sony) ;)

But I am kind of in agreement... although I will discuss on DevNet also because there may be some knowledge there that does include proprietary information. Sony and MS seem to think any information about their respective consoles is proprietary and falls under NDA.

On May 27, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Sherief Farouk wrote:

> Why? I think the discussion belongs here, and the topic doesn't seem to include proprietary information - a lot of 360 info has been made public through MS material. Other info can be discussed without much disclosure (we can refer to TCRs by three-letter category and number, etc).
> 
> - Sherief
> 
> On May 27, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Alex Rosenberg wrote:
> 
>> Please create a thread on DevNet to discuss this further.
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>> On May 27, 2010, at 9:26 AM, Kevin Wooten wrote:
>> 
>>> By linux derivative I meant that it borrows the linux GCC ABI... and  
>>> it does.  You can compile with an off the shelf GCC cross compiler  
>>> and link the resultant object files ones compiled with the PS3  
>>> provided version.   We have done it.
>>> 
>>> Also, as both an XBox 360 and PS3 developer, there seems to me to be  
>>> nothing in the TCRs/TRCs that preclude us from using a different  
>>> compiler.  There are rules about symbol inclusion and other  
>>> resultant binary requirements... but as of yet I have not found  
>>> specific ones stopping us from using a compiler that works.  In  
>>> either case the LLVM rewriter solves any other these issues as we  
>>> would be just be compiling C.
>>> 
>>> On May 27, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Alex Rosenberg wrote:
>>> 
>>>> PS3 is not "a Linux derivative." The compilers supplied by SCE for  
>>>> PS3 game development are highly customized and support a customized  
>>>> ABI that will take some time to adjust LLVM and Clang to support.
>>>> 
>>>> You'd likely also run afoul of a TRC or two, similar to the  
>>>> problems you'll face with Microsoft TCRs mentioned earlier.
>>>> 
>>>> Alex
>>>> 
>>>> On May 27, 2010, at 12:15 AM, Kevin Wooten wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Implementing the backend (or editing the current PPC backend as  
>>>>> needed) is a definite option.  This seems to be the real  
>>>>> question... which is easier... maintaining the PPC backend or  
>>>>> maintaining the rewriter.  Currently (in admittedly trivial tests)  
>>>>> I have gotten the rewriter to work and output C code.  There are  
>>>>> some outstanding issues to do with linking and accessing the  
>>>>> reflection information objective-c provides (and the rewriter  
>>>>> properly outputs) but I am sure the person/people who wrote the  
>>>>> rewriter can answer those fairly simply (or else the rewriter  
>>>>> would be fairly useless).
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as the runtime goes there is an implementation for windows,  
>>>>> linux and most likely the PS3 (since it is already a linux  
>>>>> derivative using GCC as mentioned).  If we have to create a  
>>>>> runtime for PS3 and XBox that seems trivial as the functions are  
>>>>> very basic in nature.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My comments on OpenStep were more meant to point to the fact that  
>>>>> we would write our own library; really just throwing all notion of  
>>>>> OpenStep away.  Instead of NSObject we would create our own base  
>>>>> DObject or something along with a DString, DAarry, DSet, DMap,  
>>>>> etc.  Truthfully this would be our plan anyway because we want to  
>>>>> follow the lead of OSX and provide these objects "toll free  
>>>>> bridged"... meaning we would implement them using a std c++  
>>>>> library object (e.g. std::basic_string or std::vector) as the  
>>>>> first member of the object which will allow us to cast a DString  
>>>>> to std::string or DArray to std::vector without any manual or  
>>>>> automatic marshaling. As mentioned this is how OSX implements its  
>>>>> NS classes, by using the equivalent CF version which again allows  
>>>>> casting between the objects.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On May 26, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Dale Johannesen wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> llvm can output C code, but that target has bitrotted severely  
>>>>>> over the last few months and nobody seems to be interested in  
>>>>>> fixing it.  You may need to do some work there.  Alternatively  
>>>>>> you could implement the PPC ABI that you need.  There are several  
>>>>>> examples of supporting multiple ABIs on the same hardware, x86  
>>>>>> being the most obvious.  A lot of simple stuff will probably Just  
>>>>>> Work with the existing PPC ABI, more complicated stuff may not.   
>>>>>> (Only 32-bit PPC is really maintained, though, there are probably  
>>>>>> lots of problems with 64-bit.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Objective C in llvm, AFAIK, is only used on the MacOSX targets  
>>>>>> and only tested there.   There are sufficient secret handshakes  
>>>>>> between the compiler and the ObjC runtime that it is unlikely to  
>>>>>> Just Work in an untested environment.  OpenStep has a familial  
>>>>>> relationship to MacOSX ObjC runtime, but they aren't the same and  
>>>>>> are unlikely to still be binary compatible at this point.  You  
>>>>>> may need to do some work there also.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Summary, you can probably get this approach to work, but it's not  
>>>>>> as easy as you're hoping.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 26, 2010, at 5:20 PMPDT, kdubb wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We are looking at using Objective-C/C++ in a new game engine.   
>>>>>>> Objective C's duality of being both very dynamic and very "C"  
>>>>>>> gives us exactly what we need to make the SDK and engineering of  
>>>>>>> games simpler.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This means that we will need a way to compile it on all  
>>>>>>> platforms our games will target.  Currently the major platforms  
>>>>>>> we are concerned with include... PC, Mac, XBox 360, PS3,  
>>>>>>> iPhone.  Now the PC, Mac, iPhone and PS3 are fairly simple.  If  
>>>>>>> we build our own OpenStep libraries we can simply use LLVM to  
>>>>>>> compile directly to these platforms; the PS3 although  
>>>>>>> proprietary uses GCC as a C/C++ compiler so I am assuming  
>>>>>>> Objective-C can be used fairly simply.  This leaves us with the  
>>>>>>> XBox 360.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The 360 is a special chip (PowerPC based) with, as far as I have  
>>>>>>> researched, a special ABI (Windows derivative).  I haven't the  
>>>>>>> faintest clue of whether code from the LLVM PPC backend would  
>>>>>>> even work on the 360, much less interoperate with the system  
>>>>>>> libraries. So my formulated solution has become this: use an  
>>>>>>> LLVM backend to output C code and then compile that code with  
>>>>>>> using MS's XBox 360 compiler. I believe I have read that LLVM  
>>>>>>> has a C backend already but I don't know how to select it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If I can get a proof of concept showing Objective-C code running  
>>>>>>> on the 360 we are off to the races.  Any help is appreciated  
>>>>>>> just not sure if all the pieces/parts exist and/or what I am  
>>>>>>> missing.  So... is this feasible?  If so... how do I get LLVM to  
>>>>>>> output C code?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> LLVM Developers mailing list
>>>>>>> LLVMdev at cs.uiuc.edu         http://llvm.cs.uiuc.edu
>>>>>>> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/llvmdev
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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