<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>+1 to Renato's response here. I had the same thought, and Renato
phrased it much better than I'd have managed.</p>
<p>Philip<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/5/21 9:47 AM, Renato Golin via
llvm-dev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPH-gfe7CfjVfRhbA9aBZZCKJrTCVgQEJdkmNHypEXxna3WWzA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, 5 Oct 2021 at 17:06, Tom Stellard via
llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">- Any other information
that you think will help the Board of Directors make the
best decision. </blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">- Foundation Board will
have 30 days to make a final decision about using GitHub
Pull Requests and then communicate a migration plan to the
community.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Tom,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please help me here, I think I'm severely
misunderstanding what this means...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm reading it that the "Board of Directors" will make a
decision and communicate to the community, apparently
through some undisclosed internal process.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:</div>
<div> * What about people that are on holidays during the 30
days comment period?</div>
<div> * What if the points are not made clear after 30 days?</div>
<div> * How do we know the IWG will correctly summarise the
comments to the board?</div>
<div> * How does the board guarantee it will take all facts in
consideration without bias?</div>
<div> * What kind of recourse would the community have if the
decision alienates a large part of the developers?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please understand that I'm not assuming malice *at all*.
We're all humans, and in the effort to make some change
happen we quite often let unconscious bias be the merits of
our decisions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For context...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since its inception[1], the foundation has always steered
away from technical decisions, always referring to the
llvm-dev list for those. Previous long running contentious
issues (Github, monorepo, CoC) were all decided by the
community, in the llvm-dev list, and executed by the
foundation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Recent discussions about the mailing list, irc, discord,
discourse have emphasised that, even with an infrastructure
working group, the views of the community are still too hard
to predict and make it work for the majority. Neither the
board of directors, nor the IWG are wide and diverse enough
to make decisions that take most people's views into
consideration. That is why we still rely on the dev list for
large technical discussions and decisions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Code review and bug tracking are very much technical
decisions. Not code directly, but how we all work. And there
are a lot of us. Giving feedback and having no insight into
the decision making process will certainly divide the
community even more, if we're forced to accept whatever
outcome.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can't see how this "solves" the problem of never-ending
discussions, other than further fragmenting the community.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>cheers,</div>
<div>--renato</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a
href="http://blog.llvm.org/2014/04/the-llvm-foundation.html"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://blog.llvm.org/2014/04/the-llvm-foundation.html</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>