<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:50 AM Matt P. Dziubinski <<a href="mailto:matdzb@gmail.com">matdzb@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 6/15/2021 18:29, David Blaikie wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:40 AM Matt P. Dziubinski via llvm-dev <br>
> <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> On 6/15/2021 12:58, Aaron Ballman via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
> > On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight<br>
> <<a href="mailto:jyknight@google.com" target="_blank">jyknight@google.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:jyknight@google.com" target="_blank">jyknight@google.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not<br>
> clear to me how to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting<br>
> "mailing list mode", which sounds like the right thing -- sending<br>
> all messages via email. Except that option is global -- all messages<br>
> in all categories on the llvm discourse instance. Which definitely<br>
> isn't what I want at all. I don't want to subscribe to MLIR, for<br>
> example.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check<br>
> "mailing list mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I<br>
> guess.<br>
> >><br>
> >>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching<br>
> from a mailing list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely<br>
> reasonable to use for end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather<br>
> unconvinced about its suitability as a dev-list replacement. Other<br>
> communities (e.g. python) seem to have a split, still: mailing lists<br>
> for dev-lists, and discourse for end-user-facing forums.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than<br>
> what we're used to with mailman2, including the ability to<br>
> interact/post through the website.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon,<br>
> but at this point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to<br>
> have Someone Else manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing<br>
> lists, rather than attempting to switch to discourse.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at<br>
> <a href="http://osci.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">osci.io</a> <<a href="http://osci.io" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://osci.io</a>> ("Open Source Community Infrastructure") if<br>
> they'd be willing to host our mailing lists. They are a group at<br>
> RedHat whose mission is to support infrastructure for open-source<br>
> community projects, and they host mailman3 lists for a number of<br>
> other open-source groups, already (<a href="https://www.osci.io/tenants/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.osci.io/tenants/</a><br>
> <<a href="https://www.osci.io/tenants/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.osci.io/tenants/</a>>). So, I believe they have the<br>
> necessary experience and expertise.<br>
> >><br>
> >> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to<br>
> run this for us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be<br>
> responsible for things like list moderation, but they'd run the<br>
> mailman installation on their infrastructure. In my opinion, we<br>
> ought to take this option, rather than trying to push a migration to<br>
> discourse.<br>
> >><br>
> >> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and<br>
> would solve the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for<br>
> commit lists -- giving the current maintainers quicker relief from<br>
> the undesired task of running the list service. Additionally, since<br>
> it would be a migration to Mailman3, we would get many of the<br>
> additional features mentioned as desirable, e.g. searchable archives<br>
> and posting from the website.<br>
> ><br>
> > Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think this<br>
> > approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more<br>
> comfortable<br>
> > than switching to Discord).<br>
> <br>
> I also find Mailman 3 friendlier than Discourse from the UX point of<br>
> view.<br>
> <br>
> Currently Discourse doesn't directly support standard search<br>
> functionality in web browsers, <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Could you describe what's missing/not working in more detail? At least I <br>
> can use my browser (Chrome)'s search functionality to find words in both <br>
> the pages linked below.<br>
<br>
<br>
Sure! It may be easier to notice in a longer thread: Compare the <br>
following two views--searching for D104227 using the built-in search in <br>
a web browser initially finds 0 occurrences in the first one (at the <br>
same time it works fine in the print preview and finds 1 occurrence in <br>
the penultimate comment, at least at the moment of writing):<br>
<br>
<a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940/print" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://llvm.discourse.group/t/rfc-introduce-alloca-scope-op/2940/print</a></blockquote><div><br>Ah, yep, that demonstrates the issue but for some reason the previous links didn't (maybe because the previous linked thread was all on one page for me)<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
The issue is related to the unload-on-scroll behavior of Discourse: When <br>
you open a page on <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://llvm.discourse.group</a> it doesn't load (or <br>
show) the entire thread on one page by default but instead progressively <br>
loads (and unloads) partial content as you scroll along.<br></blockquote><div><br>Ah, yeah - which is why it hijacks the search shortcut to do a web form search rather than the browser builtin. Seems to work OK - I wouldn't count this as a major usability problem, at least for me.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
There's no such restriction in the Mailman web UI since it displays the <br>
entire thread on one page by default, even for longer threads, e.g., <br>
<a href="https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/thread/JM6SQ2YNMDAKXYD5O54QWMVR2X7QOXVL/</a><br>
Loading the complete thread (displaying all messages) allows the <br>
built-in search to work without issues.<br></blockquote><div><br>Great to see too - especially to see that it addresses an issue that's always pained me about our current mailman setup, where threads get split by week or month - so there's no nice way to link to a whole thread. I'll be happy to see that addressed in either/any way.<br><br>- Dave<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Best,<br>
Matt<br>
</blockquote></div></div>