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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<p>+1 on the incrementalism. We should start with the easy stuff
(like code comments mentioning blacklists), and stage the
operational stuff in a prompt, but not rushed manner.</p>
<p>Philip<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/19/20 12:37 PM, Eric Christopher
via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALehDX4fT3kBUW59kXD5Edc25LBmrkpWbPGXNT=Wxy=8B-bc9w@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Adrian,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can understand this perspective, but I disagree. There's
no fundamental reason why we need to change everything at
once. Incremental progress can and should happen as soon as
we're able to make the changes. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:26
PM Adrian McCarthy <<a href="mailto:amccarth@google.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">amccarth@google.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">As I mentioned on another thread, we also use
the term "slave" for the BuildBot builders. In the past, I
was told this was due to being stuck on an old version of
BuildBot. Fortunately, there is already work in progress to
update BuildBot to a newer version. Since that's also going
affect all the build machines, perhaps changing the name of
the main branch should happen simultaneously, when the
BuildBots are already being impacted.</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at
12:22 PM Chris Tetreault via llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">+1 to waiting until git and/or
github decide on a new name for the default branch.
I think there is a compelling reason to change the
name of the default branch to match community
expectations, if for no other reason. If we leave it
as “master” after git changes it, then we have to
explain that we left it as “master” because we could
not agree on whether or not “master” is
non-inclusive. If we pick a new name that is not
“master”, but does not match the default branch that
git or github eventually converge on, we still have
to explain why we are different. If we change it
twice, then we have to incur the non-zero cost
associated with making the change twice, which I
feel would be a waste of community resources.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe that we need to
change it as soon as physically possible. I think we
can clearly document (say, in the readme on github),
that we intend to change it once the community
converges on a new name. We can provide a deadline
(say, 6 months) for the community to decide on a new
default branch name before we make any change. If
this deadline passes, then we can decide on a new
name for the default branch and stick with it moving
forward.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Christopher Tetreault</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Keane, Erich via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXT] Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To be clear: I’m concerned about
the amount of our infrastructure (as well as
downstream infrastructure, this would be actually
pretty painful for both of my downstreams) that the
community would have break/need fixing as a part of
that. So I want this to happen ONCE. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it is well motivated now,
but switching from ‘default’ to ‘main’ when that
becomes the ‘standard’ one seems way less
motivated. So I just forsee it being a wart on the
project for a very long time.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That said, I’ve done a bit of
research and the git mailing list thread (<a
href="https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAOAHyQwyXC1Z3v7BZAC+Bq6JBaM7FvBenA-1fcqeDV==apdWDg@mail.gmail.com/#t"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAOAHyQwyXC1Z3v7BZAC+Bq6JBaM7FvBenA-1fcqeDV==apdWDg@mail.gmail.com/#t</a>)
as well as just news reports about github, and they
all seem to be converging on ‘main’, though I don’t
have good insight into it.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If ‘we’ as a community (and I
think we do?) have a contact at github could ping
someone and get a reasonably quick confirmation that
they are switching to ‘main’, it would be
appreciated/should guide our decision.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Keane, Erich via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My understanding is the biggest
concern about the name change is the ‘cost’
associated with needing to update each of the
individual buildbots (and my understanding is that
this would be a somewhat non-centralized action)
configurations. So I think we’re talking about more
than just 1 person running the script in 10 minutes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Christopher
<<a href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in
LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I mean, we could change it
twice? There are about a hundred scripts out there
for doing it.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:40
AM Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do we have any ability to
reach out to github (at least?) to see what
they are going to do? I’d very much like to
avoid being the odd-project-out here.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric
Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master`
branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There's really no
guarantee that things will shake out the
same in near term between the projects.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020
at 11:31 AM Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m a bit mixed
on this. While yes, we should
change this as soon as is practical,
it would be a shame to pick
something sufficiently different
from the rest of the world, as that
would be anti-inclusive (though in a
technical way). It would be REALLY
good if we knew what github/git were
GOING to name theirs and just do
that as soon as possible.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric
Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020
11:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev]
Inclusive language in LLVM: can we
rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I
appreciate this sentiment we
should not block our changes on a
project over which we have no
control. Changing the name and the
documentation is easy and we
should do this today.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun
19, 2020 at 10:49 AM Petr Penzin
via llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt">
<div>
<p>+1</p>
<p>Git uses `master` branch in
quite a few places in its docs
and `git init` produces a
`master` branch. ideally, a
change to git should drive all
of this - that way there would
be no confusion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Petr</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
6/19/20 10:45 AM, Keane,
Erich via llvm-dev wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree
with this. As much as I
dislike the name that I
believe github will
choose, we should just do
whatever everyone else is
doing.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note
that in addition to the
github discussion, there
is some extensive
discussion on the .git
mailing list (IIRC) about
choosing a new name as
well. I hope github waits
until that choses a name
as well.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip
Reames via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday,
June 19, 2020 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mehdi AMINI
<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><joker.eph@gmail.com></a>;
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can
we rename `master`
branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>+1 to the notion of
changing the branch name
in general.</p>
<p>However, I think there's
a practical aspect which
needs considered.
Currently, "master" is the
defacto convention used
across many, many
projects. There's
currently a lot of
conversation going on
across many projects about
naming. I think it's
really important that
rather than just picking
something that we wait and
see what the new
convention is, and adopt
that. I've seen reporting
that GitHub is considering
changing the default name
for new projects. If that
does end up happening - I
hope it does - I think we
should use whatever name
they pick. Convention is
critical for ease of use
of new contributors.</p>
<p>Philip</p>
<p>p.s. There's a bunch of
other terminology in use
which is potentially
problematic, but I'm
intentionally restricting
my response to this one.
I think each deserves
discussion on it's own
merits.
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
6/19/20 2:48 AM, Mehdi
AMINI via llvm-dev
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">When
we moved to
GitHub a few
months ago, we
used without
more
consideration
the "master"
convention to
name our
development
branch. On SVN
it used to be
just "trunk".</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">This
naming is
<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
unfortunate</a> as
it can <a
href="https://dev.to/afrodevgirl/replacing-master-with-main-in-github-2fjf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
hurt some
contributors</a>,
and there is
really no
technical
advantage that I
know of to favor
this convention
over another.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">I
am perfectly
aware that
`master` has
other
significations
than the
master/slave
meaning, and I
personally never
made this
association in
the past.
However I'm also
able to
recognize that
I'm privileged
here, and that
not everyone is
in the same
position.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">As
we intend to be
an inclusive
community, I
propose that we
change the name
of our
development
branch and that
we adopt instead
a more neutral
terminology for
the LLVM
monorepo.
Possible names
are "dev",
"trunk", "main",
"default", ...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">We
need to plan a
transition as
all the bots
will need to be
updated to track
this new branch
instead, but
these are minor
technical
details, nothing
compared to the
SVN->Git
migration we
went through.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Since
I'm on this
topic, we should
also likely look
into the
pervasive use of
whitelist/blacklist in the project.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Thoughts?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal">Mehdi</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a>
</pre>
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