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<p>-1 on rushing this.</p>
<p>Philip<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/19/20 12:25 PM, Eric Christopher
via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALehDX6Wc5cvkUojEThoSL2FWDFEhRJ72MXZ_Uhy=zyjPcjZ=g@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">I disagree with your timing concerns. Changing is
still straightforward and I'd like to see this done within 1-2
weeks.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-eric</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 12:22
PM Chris Tetreault <<a href="mailto:ctetreau@quicinc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ctetreau@quicinc.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_8737635109240623976WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">+1 to waiting until git and/or github
decide on a new name for the default branch. I think
there is a compelling reason to change the name of the
default branch to match community expectations, if for
no other reason. If we leave it as “master” after git
changes it, then we have to explain that we left it as
“master” because we could not agree on whether or not
“master” is non-inclusive. If we pick a new name that is
not “master”, but does not match the default branch that
git or github eventually converge on, we still have to
explain why we are different. If we change it twice,
then we have to incur the non-zero cost associated with
making the change twice, which I feel would be a waste
of community resources.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do not believe that we need to
change it as soon as physically possible. I think we can
clearly document (say, in the readme on github), that we
intend to change it once the community converges on a
new name. We can provide a deadline (say, 6 months) for
the community to decide on a new default branch name
before we make any change. If this deadline passes, then
we can decide on a new name for the default branch and
stick with it moving forward.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Christopher Tetreault</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of
</b>Keane, Erich via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Eric Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXT] Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To be clear: I’m concerned about the
amount of our infrastructure (as well as downstream
infrastructure, this would be actually pretty painful
for both of my downstreams) that the community would
have break/need fixing as a part of that. So I want
this to happen ONCE. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it is well motivated now, but
switching from ‘default’ to ‘main’ when that becomes the
‘standard’ one seems way less motivated. So I just
forsee it being a wart on the project for a very long
time.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That said, I’ve done a bit of
research and the git mailing list thread (<a
href="https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAOAHyQwyXC1Z3v7BZAC+Bq6JBaM7FvBenA-1fcqeDV==apdWDg@mail.gmail.com/#t"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAOAHyQwyXC1Z3v7BZAC+Bq6JBaM7FvBenA-1fcqeDV==apdWDg@mail.gmail.com/#t</a>)
as well as just news reports about github, and they all
seem to be converging on ‘main’, though I don’t have
good insight into it.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If ‘we’ as a community (and I think
we do?) have a contact at github could ping someone and
get a reasonably quick confirmation that they are
switching to ‘main’, it would be appreciated/should
guide our decision.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Keane, Erich via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in
LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My understanding is the biggest
concern about the name change is the ‘cost’ associated
with needing to update each of the individual buildbots
(and my understanding is that this would be a somewhat
non-centralized action) configurations. So I think
we’re talking about more than just 1 person running the
script in 10 minutes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in
LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I mean, we could change it twice?
There are about a hundred scripts out there for doing
it.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:40 AM
Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do we have any ability to
reach out to github (at least?) to see what they
are going to do? I’d very much like to avoid
being the odd-project-out here.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Christopher
<<a href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There's really no guarantee
that things will shake out the same in near
term between the projects.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at
11:31 AM Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in
6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m a bit mixed on
this. While yes, we should change this
as soon as is practical, it would be a
shame to pick something sufficiently
different from the rest of the world, as
that would be anti-inclusive (though in
a technical way). It would be REALLY
good if we knew what github/git were
GOING to name theirs and just do that as
soon as possible.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric
Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:23
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master`
branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I appreciate
this sentiment we should not block our
changes on a project over which we
have no control. Changing the name and
the documentation is easy and we
should do this today.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19,
2020 at 10:49 AM Petr Penzin via
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in
0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p>+1</p>
<p>Git uses `master` branch in quite
a few places in its docs and `git
init` produces a `master` branch.
ideally, a change to git should
drive all of this - that way there
would be no confusion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Petr</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/19/20
10:45 AM, Keane, Erich via
llvm-dev wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree
with this. As much as I
dislike the name that I
believe github will choose, we
should just do whatever
everyone else is doing.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note that
in addition to the github
discussion, there is some
extensive discussion on the
.git mailing list (IIRC) about
choosing a new name as well.
I hope github waits until that
choses a name as well.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip
Reames via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June
19, 2020 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mehdi AMINI <a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><joker.eph@gmail.com></a>;
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we
rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>+1 to the notion of changing
the branch name in general.</p>
<p>However, I think there's a
practical aspect which needs
considered. Currently,
"master" is the defacto
convention used across many,
many projects. There's
currently a lot of
conversation going on across
many projects about naming. I
think it's really important
that rather than just picking
something that we wait and see
what the new convention is,
and adopt that. I've seen
reporting that GitHub is
considering changing the
default name for new
projects. If that does end up
happening - I hope it does - I
think we should use whatever
name they pick. Convention is
critical for ease of use of
new contributors.</p>
<p>Philip</p>
<p>p.s. There's a bunch of other
terminology in use which is
potentially problematic, but
I'm intentionally restricting
my response to this one. I
think each deserves discussion
on it's own merits.
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
6/19/20 2:48 AM, Mehdi AMINI
via llvm-dev wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When
we moved to GitHub a
few months ago, we
used without more
consideration the
"master" convention
to name our
development branch.
On SVN it used to be
just "trunk".</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This
naming is
<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
unfortunate</a> as
it can <a
href="https://dev.to/afrodevgirl/replacing-master-with-main-in-github-2fjf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
hurt some
contributors</a>,
and there is really
no technical
advantage that I
know of to favor
this convention over
another.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
am perfectly aware
that `master` has
other significations
than the
master/slave
meaning, and I
personally never
made this
association in the
past. However I'm
also able to
recognize that I'm
privileged here, and
that not everyone is
in the same
position.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As
we intend to be an
inclusive community,
I propose that we
change the name of
our development
branch and that we
adopt instead a more
neutral terminology
for the LLVM
monorepo. Possible
names are "dev",
"trunk", "main",
"default", ...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We
need to plan a
transition as all
the bots will need
to be updated to
track this new
branch instead, but
these are minor
technical details,
nothing compared to
the SVN->Git
migration we went
through.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since
I'm on this topic,
we should also
likely look into the
pervasive use of
whitelist/blacklist
in the project.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thoughts?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mehdi</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a>
</pre>
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