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<p>Can I suggest that we pick a day well in advance to make the
changes, but leave the exact naming TBD? This solves two
problems.</p>
<ul>
<li>If the broader community settles on a consensus of naming in
the meantime, we follow. This would ensure that we do
eventually act if no consensus emerges, but gives us a chance to
follow consensus if one does rapidly emerge. <br>
</li>
<li>Having a date picked give downstream folks time to plan and
adjust.</li>
</ul>
<p>I'll throw out July 15th as a reasonable date. <br>
</p>
<p>Philip<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/19/20 11:50 AM, Eric Christopher
via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CALehDX5L9_KoCnUkzjiYpGf0o-geAaMSZDwycxAmbHYR03QLGQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">That's a good point, we should definitely be
respectful of the build bot owners time, that said I think it's
the coordination that takes the time rather than the change :)</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:48
AM Keane, Erich via llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="gmail-m_-1669574469155330516WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">My understanding is the biggest
concern about the name change is the ‘cost’ associated
with needing to update each of the individual buildbots
(and my understanding is that this would be a somewhat
non-centralized action) configurations. So I think
we’re talking about more than just 1 person running the
script in 10 minutes.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive language in
LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I mean, we could change it twice?
There are about a hundred scripts out there for doing
it.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:40 AM
Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
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style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
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6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do we have any ability to
reach out to github (at least?) to see what they
are going to do? I’d very much like to avoid
being the odd-project-out here.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Christopher
<<a href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master` branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There's really no guarantee
that things will shake out the same in near
term between the projects.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at
11:31 AM Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m a bit mixed on
this. While yes, we should change this
as soon as is practical, it would be a
shame to pick something sufficiently
different from the rest of the world, as
that would be anti-inclusive (though in
a technical way). It would be REALLY
good if we knew what github/git were
GOING to name theirs and just do that as
soon as possible.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric
Christopher <<a
href="mailto:echristo@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">echristo@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 19, 2020 11:23
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Petr Penzin <<a
href="mailto:penzin.dev@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">penzin.dev@gmail.com</a>>;
Mehdi AMINI <<a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">joker.eph@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Keane, Erich <<a
href="mailto:erich.keane@intel.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erich.keane@intel.com</a>>;
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we rename `master`
branch?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">While I appreciate
this sentiment we should not block our
changes on a project over which we
have no control. Changing the name and
the documentation is easy and we
should do this today.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-eric</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 19,
2020 at 10:49 AM Petr Penzin via
llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
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<div>
<p>+1</p>
<p>Git uses `master` branch in quite
a few places in its docs and `git
init` produces a `master` branch.
ideally, a change to git should
drive all of this - that way there
would be no confusion.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Petr</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/19/20
10:45 AM, Keane, Erich via
llvm-dev wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree
with this. As much as I
dislike the name that I
believe github will choose, we
should just do whatever
everyone else is doing.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Note that
in addition to the github
discussion, there is some
extensive discussion on the
.git mailing list (IIRC) about
choosing a new name as well.
I hope github waits until that
choses a name as well.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div
style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid
rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Philip
Reames via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June
19, 2020 10:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mehdi AMINI <a
href="mailto:joker.eph@gmail.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><joker.eph@gmail.com></a>;
llvm-dev
<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[llvm-dev] Inclusive
language in LLVM: can we
rename `master` branch?</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p>+1 to the notion of changing
the branch name in general.</p>
<p>However, I think there's a
practical aspect which needs
considered. Currently,
"master" is the defacto
convention used across many,
many projects. There's
currently a lot of
conversation going on across
many projects about naming. I
think it's really important
that rather than just picking
something that we wait and see
what the new convention is,
and adopt that. I've seen
reporting that GitHub is
considering changing the
default name for new
projects. If that does end up
happening - I hope it does - I
think we should use whatever
name they pick. Convention is
critical for ease of use of
new contributors.</p>
<p>Philip</p>
<p>p.s. There's a bunch of other
terminology in use which is
potentially problematic, but
I'm intentionally restricting
my response to this one. I
think each deserves discussion
on it's own merits.
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
6/19/20 2:48 AM, Mehdi AMINI
via llvm-dev wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When
we moved to GitHub a
few months ago, we
used without more
consideration the
"master" convention
to name our
development branch.
On SVN it used to be
just "trunk".</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This
naming is
<a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-00.html#rfc.section.1.1"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
unfortunate</a> as
it can <a
href="https://dev.to/afrodevgirl/replacing-master-with-main-in-github-2fjf"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">
hurt some
contributors</a>,
and there is really
no technical
advantage that I
know of to favor
this convention over
another.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I
am perfectly aware
that `master` has
other significations
than the
master/slave
meaning, and I
personally never
made this
association in the
past. However I'm
also able to
recognize that I'm
privileged here, and
that not everyone is
in the same
position.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As
we intend to be an
inclusive community,
I propose that we
change the name of
our development
branch and that we
adopt instead a more
neutral terminology
for the LLVM
monorepo. Possible
names are "dev",
"trunk", "main",
"default", ...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We
need to plan a
transition as all
the bots will need
to be updated to
track this new
branch instead, but
these are minor
technical details,
nothing compared to
the SVN->Git
migration we went
through.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Since
I'm on this topic,
we should also
likely look into the
pervasive use of
whitelist/blacklist
in the project.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thoughts?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mehdi</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>LLVM Developers mailing list</pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
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moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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