<div dir="ltr">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>Throwing a couple of comments in:</div><div><br></div><div>Chris's position here has a lot of good points and we want to make sure we're not raising the barrier too high. I definitely want to be able to push ahead with our versions of tools; being able to update quickly is one of the hallmarks of the llvm project. That said, binary packages that can be updated are a minimal first step IMO. I'd really like to not build anything from source :) It seems like there are binaries available for cmake for all of our current platforms, but the windows use case that he brings is definitely a significant one. Can we perhaps reach out and find out the likelihood of a reasonably soonish update there? Linux distros are probably less of a problem - while we all can't use ppas we should be able to do something, similarly with osx.</div><div><br></div><div>Thoughts?</div><div><br></div><div>-eric<br><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 9:53 AM Chris Tetreault via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">A line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. How many “easy” things are we going to require the user to do? Today it’s build a specific CMake from source. What’s next?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Not having to manually track down a bunch of dependencies before building is a feature. Not having to have an internet connection at build time (if we were to script the getting of the custom CMake) is a feature. Being able to just call
cmake instead of using some build_llvm.sh that (probably poorly) wraps cmake and downloads the correct version is a feature. Being able to use CMake that is distributed with visual studio so that invoking cmake from the developer powershell just works without
fiddling with PATHs is a feature. Not having to install msys so that I can invoke download_cmake.sh is a feature. Not having to have the correct version of python (is it 2 or 3?) be on the path in order to invoke download_cmake.py is a feature. Not having
to remember to do --recurse-submodules on the llvm repo if we include it as a git submodule is a feature. The list goes on. Yeah, these are all little things, but a bunch of little things adds up to a huge barrier.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">People use Linux distos because by and large they just have all the dependencies that they need. I know I personally hate installing some open source thing on my machines when they have some dependency that’s not in the repos. Sure, it
may be easy to build CMake from source. But now I have two CMakes: one that is automatically updated when I do sudo apt-get upgrade, and one that is just randomly in some folder that’s probably not on the PATH. I personally would really appreciate it if we
made an attempt to reduce this sort of friction.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Christopher Tetreault<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 8, 2020 9:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Louis Dionne <<a href="mailto:ldionne@apple.com" target="_blank">ldionne@apple.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXT] Re: [llvm-dev] Upgrading LLVM's minimum required CMake version<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 9:02 AM Louis Dionne <<a href="mailto:ldionne@apple.com" target="_blank">ldionne@apple.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 7, 2020, at 22:16, Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 11:27 AM David Blaikie <<a href="mailto:dblaikie@gmail.com" target="_blank">dblaikie@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think it does make a difference how many things we ask new developers to do to get up and running - because we've asked them to do one thing doesn't mean it's low-cost to ask them to do another thing.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In this case I see it rather that if we ask them to do one quite big thing already, we should be OK with what seems like a trivial one.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I strongly agree. I think Mehdi's point can be summarized as (Mehdi, feel free to correct me):<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> It's incredibly trivial to install CMake, so if a user is *already* required to install a non-default toolchain (which is not so trivial), requiring them to install a non-default CMake is not increasing the barrier by much.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks, this is my point indeed!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think it is even slightly stronger than what you wrote since you don't even need to *install* CMake as it can be built and used directly from the build directory: it is entirely non-intrusive on the system.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Mehdi<u></u><u></u></p>
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