<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:25 AM Rob Conde via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Some thoughts:</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<ul>
<li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">I think there's a psychological difference of a mailing list vs. slack/discord. Slack/discord maybe feels like being in a group of your friends and asking a casual question.
A mailing list feels like being in a class and raising your hand to interrupt for a question. </span><br>
</li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">An email is going to go to everyone on the list. The slack/discord message is only going to go to who is in the channel at the moment (not technically...but usually I don't
read the history of everything I missed when not in a channel).</span></li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">It's a positive for a mailing list that you spend the time thinking about what you're going to say as mentioned before...but it also adds a burden for the poster. Some peoples
learning style is to talk-it-through, and because the expectation for a mailing list is that you're going to put a lot of thought into your question, it discourages that.<br>
</span></li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Having a (more or less) immediate back-and-forth on a slack/discord type medium has an entirely different "vibe" than a mailing list.</span></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It was maybe a mistake to couple the two topics (IRC/email vs discord/discourse) in the same thread, because I'm confused by the comparison of discord vs mailing-lists.<br></div><div><br></div><div>My understanding is that Slack/discord is intended to replace our IRC channel and *not* the mailing-lists.</div><div>Separately there is also *Discourse* which is a better replacement for the mailing-lists: this is closer to an online forum. Discourse also has a "mailing-list" mode where you can receive *everything* through email and answer by email (it gets posted to the thread in discourse).</div><div><br></div><div>I don't have a strong opinion on Discord, but am very much in favor of Discourse: not only it plays "OK" with email but it allows to have subcategories, to move thread around, to subscribe to particular categories (or a specific thread) to get notifications and mute others.</div><div>Creating a new category on Discourse is also much less process-oriented than creating a mailing-list (sometimes the tool can make something very smooth/usable: just like git made working with branches natural). </div><div><br></div><div>It also allows to have every subproject share a common "community" space that does not really exist today: this thread is a good example: it lives on llvm-dev@ and does not include the mailing-lists of the other sub-projects. So llvm-dev@ is mixing technical content with the community management? Someone working on LLDB *has to* follow closely llvm-dev and filter out the 95% technical content to get the 5% they want?</div><div><br></div><div>Of course we could create more and more mailing-list: but we never did (discoverability isn't great, managing subscription is annoying, and creating a mailing-list isn't a "light-weight process).</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>-- </div><div>Mehdi</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div>Ultimately, both styles of communication are valuable...especially if they both have searchable histories.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rob</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_7757864354293204028appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_7757864354293204028divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>> on behalf of Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 18, 2019 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LLVM Dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM David Chisnall via llvm-dev<br>
<<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On 18/11/2019 16:39, Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
> > I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was<br>
> > intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.<br>
><br>
> Subscribing to a mailing list, particularly one as high-traffic as<br>
> LLVM-Dev, is a high friction activity. I was contributing to LLVM for<br>
> several years before I subscribed to llvm-dev, because I didn't want to<br>
> deal with the traffic volume (filtering is a lot better now, but having<br>
> to set up a mail filter adds another step for subscribing). The only<br>
> open source projects that I interact with via mailing lists are ones<br>
> where I am already an contributor.<br>
<br>
In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to<br>
the verbosity of the mailing list.<br>
<br>
llvm-dev is very verbose. I.e. high "friction" coefficient. So are<br>
cfe-dev and llvm-commits. O-Well. That's how they are.<br>
<br>
I don't quite see how some sort of pretty Web UI will reduce the<br>
friction coefficient. It might introduce a new, "annoyance"<br>
coefficient, because of the added noise of pretty formatting, emojis,<br>
color quoting, and all kinds of other extraneous - and unnecessary -<br>
decorations that have very little to do with the information being<br>
conveyed.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Stefan Teleman<br>
<a href="mailto:stefan.teleman@gmail.com" target="_blank">stefan.teleman@gmail.com</a><br>
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</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:25 AM Rob Conde via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Some thoughts:</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<ul>
<li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">I think there's a psychological difference of a mailing list vs. slack/discord. Slack/discord maybe feels like being in a group of your friends and asking a casual question.
A mailing list feels like being in a class and raising your hand to interrupt for a question. </span><br>
</li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">An email is going to go to everyone on the list. The slack/discord message is only going to go to who is in the channel at the moment (not technically...but usually I don't
read the history of everything I missed when not in a channel).</span></li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">It's a positive for a mailing list that you spend the time thinking about what you're going to say as mentioned before...but it also adds a burden for the poster. Some peoples
learning style is to talk-it-through, and because the expectation for a mailing list is that you're going to put a lot of thought into your question, it discourages that.<br>
</span></li><li><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Having a (more or less) immediate back-and-forth on a slack/discord type medium has an entirely different "vibe" than a mailing list.</span></li></ul>
<div>Ultimately, both styles of communication are valuable...especially if they both have searchable histories.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rob</div>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_7757864354293204028appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_7757864354293204028divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>> on behalf of Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 18, 2019 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> LLVM Dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt">
<div>On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM David Chisnall via llvm-dev<br>
<<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On 18/11/2019 16:39, Stefan Teleman via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
> > I can't recall an instance when I had difficulty using, or was<br>
> > intimidated by, email, for saying something on a mailing list.<br>
><br>
> Subscribing to a mailing list, particularly one as high-traffic as<br>
> LLVM-Dev, is a high friction activity. I was contributing to LLVM for<br>
> several years before I subscribed to llvm-dev, because I didn't want to<br>
> deal with the traffic volume (filtering is a lot better now, but having<br>
> to set up a mail filter adds another step for subscribing). The only<br>
> open source projects that I interact with via mailing lists are ones<br>
> where I am already an contributor.<br>
<br>
In other words, the friction coefficient is directly proportional to<br>
the verbosity of the mailing list.<br>
<br>
llvm-dev is very verbose. I.e. high "friction" coefficient. So are<br>
cfe-dev and llvm-commits. O-Well. That's how they are.<br>
<br>
I don't quite see how some sort of pretty Web UI will reduce the<br>
friction coefficient. It might introduce a new, "annoyance"<br>
coefficient, because of the added noise of pretty formatting, emojis,<br>
color quoting, and all kinds of other extraneous - and unnecessary -<br>
decorations that have very little to do with the information being<br>
conveyed.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Stefan Teleman<br>
<a href="mailto:stefan.teleman@gmail.com" target="_blank">stefan.teleman@gmail.com</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a><br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div>