<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:11 AM, Neil Henning via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">The lists are working well for the people who are already invested in the community though - as was identified by Chandler they aren't working as well for new people.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I don’t know if I would say it already works for those currently involved. The volume on llvm-dev is very overwhelming for many and if Discourse provides ways to get notifications about specific topics that you care about, it could greatly help people navigate the volume. </div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div>-Tanya</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm an insanely confident Scotsman with just about zero fear of any/all social situations, and I've always found this mailing list to be utterly terrifying (thus I've been a 10 year mostly-lurker).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My fear (unfounded as it probably is) is that I'll make a complete fool out of myself asking a dumb question / proposing a stupid idea, tarishing what little reputation I might have had. I know from others I've talked to over the years this isn't a sentiment that I alone feel!</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So +1 from me for anything we can do to help broaden the community.</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:03 PM Hans Wennborg via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Since it's an RFC, I'll comment :-)<br class="">
<br class="">
I don't have strong opinions about IRC vs Discord vs something else.<br class="">
<br class="">
But the idea of abandoning the mailing lists is concerning to me. The<br class="">
way I see it, the lists are core to the LLVM project, second in<br class="">
importance only to the source code repository. Web forums tend to come<br class="">
and go, but the lists have been around a long time and seem to be<br class="">
working well.<br class="">
<br class="">
Perhaps we could do other things to make the mailing lists more<br class="">
accessible? When I meet university students, they're often familiar<br class="">
with how to find our code and build it, but much less aware of the<br class="">
mailing lists, and that one can use them to ask questions. Maybe we<br class="">
should promote them in README.md, which is probably the first thing<br class="">
new users would see these days?<br class="">
<br class="">
On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 8:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev<br class="">
<<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br class="">
><br class="">
> Hello everyone,<br class="">
><br class="">
> Short version:<br class="">
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):<br class="">
> <a href="https://discord.gg/xS7Z362" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://discord.gg/xS7Z362</a><br class="">
> <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://llvm.discourse.group/</a><br class="">
><br class="">
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.<br class="">
><br class="">
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.<br class="">
><br class="">
> Longer version & more details:<br class="">
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]<br class="">
><br class="">
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:<br class="">
> <a href="https://discord.gg/xS7Z362" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://discord.gg/xS7Z362</a><br class="">
> <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://llvm.discourse.group/</a><br class="">
><br class="">
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:<br class="">
><br class="">
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.<br class="">
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.<br class="">
><br class="">
> See the plan here: <a href="https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://llvm.discourse.group/t/mirroring-and-archiving-llvm-mailing-lists-on-discourse/61</a><br class="">
><br class="">
> Moving Discourse to <a href="http://forums.llvm.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">forums.llvm.org</a>.<br class="">
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.<br class="">
><br class="">
><br class="">
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.<br class="">
><br class="">
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.<br class="">
><br class="">
> -Chandler<br class="">
> _______________________________________________<br class="">
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;color:rgb(90,90,91);font-size:13px;margin:0px 0px 20px;padding:0px" class=""><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><td align="left" style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:0px;line-height:1.5em;padding:0px 0px 20px;vertical-align:top" class=""><table align="left" style="border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" class=""><tbody style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><td style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:1.12em;line-height:1.5em;padding:0px;vertical-align:top;width:64px" class=""><img width="64" height="auto" style="border: medium none currentcolor; border-radius: 0px; display: block; font-size: 13px; height: auto; line-height: 100%; margin: 0px; max-width: 100%; outline-style: none; outline-width: medium; padding: 20px 0px 0px; width: 100%;" alt="" src="https://unity3d.com/profiles/unity3d/themes/unity/images/ui/other/unity-logo-dark-email.png" class=""></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><td align="left" style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:0px;line-height:1.5em;padding:0px;vertical-align:top" class=""><div style="font-family: Roboto, Arial; font-size: 14px; font-weight: 600; line-height: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" class="">Neil Henning</div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><td align="left" style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:0px;line-height:1.5em;padding:0px;vertical-align:top" class=""><div style="font-family: Roboto, Arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 10px;" class="">Senior Software Engineer Compiler</div></td></tr><tr style="margin:0px;padding:0px" class=""><td align="left" style="border-collapse:collapse;font-size:0px;line-height:1.5em;padding:0px;vertical-align:top" class=""><div style="font-family: Roboto, Arial; font-size: 12px; line-height: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://unity.com/" target="_blank" class="">unity.com</a></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div>
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