<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 29, 2019, at 6:14 PM, Mehdi AMINI via llvm-dev <llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:29 PM James Y Knight via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">CMake is extremely easy for developers to download and build locally -- or just download binaries for if you like, too.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is there any script we can/would provide to help with this? Or is it so simple that two lines in the "getting started" instructions would be enough?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The instructions for building cmake are *very* simple: <a href="https://cmake.org/install/">https://cmake.org/install/</a></div><div><br></div><div>We could easily link to that page from our docs.</div><div><br></div><div>-Chris</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>-- </div><div>Mehdi</div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"> It's _MUCH_ simpler than upgrading the host C compiler toolchain. Doing that can be extremely tricky -- to the point of being nearly impossible for all but the most dedicated person. That's the major reason why I think it's entirely reasonable to require a new version of cmake, and not at all viable to require a new compiler.<div><div><div><br></div><div>As far as distro inclusion -- if LLVM 10 requires CMake 3.15, I have full confidence that distros will manage to upgrade CMake first, before pulling in LLVM 10. I don't think that'll be a hardship to distro maintainers.<div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>IMO, it will reduce overall pain if we attempt to keep the number of times we require a newer cmake as infrequent as we can. And we'll get the most benefit if we use the latest release each time we do require such an upgrade.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 3:51 PM David Blaikie via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 12:48 PM Jean-Daniel via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Le 29 oct. 2019 à 19:00, Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> a écrit :</div><br><div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 8:40 PM David Blaikie <</span><a href="mailto:dblaikie@gmail.com" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">dblaikie@gmail.com</a><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">> wrote:</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br><br><br>On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 10:28 AM Roman Lebedev via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br>+1 to bumping cmake version and cleaning build system somewhat.<br><br>On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 8:23 PM Tom Stellard via llvm-dev<br><<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite"><br>On 10/29/2019 10:10 AM, Chris Bieneman via llvm-dev wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">At the LLVM Developer Meeting on October 23rd we held a CMake roundtable. One of the items we discussed was adopting a more regular timeline for CMake upgrades. During the roundtable there was overwhelming support for upgrading CMake, and support for treating CMake differently than how we treat upgrading host compilers.<br><br>Historically we've taken into account recent versions of Visual Studio, Xcode and Linux distribution long term support packages when deciding what CMake version to require. While this does work, it has held us to old versions of CMake for long periods of time.<br><br>During the roundtable we discussed that the amount of effort involved in updating to a modern CMake is more or less the same regardless of what version we choose. We believe this to be true because most OS package managers have older versions, like the Ubuntu 18.04 LTS which has CMake 3.10.2 which was released January 18, 2018. Additionally <a href="http://CMake.org" target="_blank">CMake.org</a> provides binary and source downloads, and building CMake from source has lower system requirements than LLVM and is very simple.<br><br>With all of this in mind at the roundtable we decided to propose raising the minimum required CMake version for all LLVM sub-projects to 3.15.0. Assuming there are no objections to this proposal, I propose a cut-over date of December 2, 2019.<br><br></blockquote><br>Will users of the CMake export files generated by LLVM also need to use 3.15.0 or<br>is it possibly to have the export files require an older version?<br><br>The 10.0 branchpoint will be in early January, I think it would be better<br>to wait until after the branch. Mainly because that doesn't give us a<br>lot of time to actually take advantage of the new features in 3.15.0 before the<br>branch, so I don't see much benefit in switching over at that date.<br><br>I think we should also decide on a long-term plan for CMake requirements.<br>If the conclusion is that users should be able to handle using the latest<br>(3.15.0) version of CMake, maybe we should just plan to always up-date to the<br>latest version in trunk after each release branch is created.<br></blockquote>Would it please be possible to have some reasonably sane<br>dependency versioning policy?<br></blockquote><br><br>I'm not sure "sane" captures the nuance of your position - only suggests that<br>Tom's suggestion of upgrading to the latest release is "insane"?<br></blockquote><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">The "insane" word is not in my mail.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">I'm only saying it will be good to document the actual versioning policy,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">and it will be great if it's not "just manually download XYZ and use it".</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">What is it you'd like to avoid or that you find important/valuable about a one year old<br>version of CMake, for instance? It means users have to update their CMake<br>as frequently (since it doesn't skip versions) - but allows some users to get this<br>based on their distributions release, rather than having to do it manually/explicitly?<br></blockquote><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Extremely precisely, yes.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">If you require The freshest version of something, it is all but guaranteed to</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">be not packaged in distributions, so basically *everyone* will have to</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">work around the packaging system. If the version is //somewhat// aged,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">then it is not unreasonable to expect for it to be present in</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">//some// proper packaged form in //most// distros.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Experience show that distros don’t keep CMake up to date anyway.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Do you have some data on that? It'd be interesting to see what sort of time horizon would help and by how much/little.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>So why bother waiting 1 year, as it will most probably not change anything.</div><div><br></div><div>Moreover, cmake version is only a requirement for LLVM developers themselves and not LLVM users.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>The same argument applies to the host compiler, though - which we've been more cautious about requiring more recent versions of.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div>It is not uncommon to have to update the installed build tools when wanting to checkout and build a project, especially one of this size.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">All that of course does not apply to platforms with no native packaging</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">system (windows?).</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">The exact definition of "aged" will not be precisely definable though,</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">I would guess 1 year is somewhat around what could be considered middle-ground.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite">Even debian sid only has 3.13.4-1.<br>How about accepting/requiring version which is at least 1 year old?<br>That would incidentally, result in requiring cmake v3.13<br><br><blockquote type="cite">-Tom<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Roman</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Thanks,<br>-Chris<br>_______________________________________________<br>LLVM Developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a><br><br></blockquote><br>_______________________________________________<br>LLVM Developers mailing list<br><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" 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