<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">On Jul 29, 2019, at 10:58 AM, JF Bastien <<a href="mailto:jfbastien@apple.com" class="">jfbastien@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I think that Rui rolled this out in an incredibly great way with LLD, incorporating a lot of community feedback and discussion, and (as you say) this thread has accumulated many posts and a lot of discussion, so I don’t see the concern about lack of communication.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think there’s lack of proper communication for this effort. The RFC is all about variable naming, with 100+ responses. Sounds like a bikeshed I’ve happily ignored, and I know many others have. Even if you don’t think I’m right, I’d appreciate a separate RFC with details of what’s actually being proposed. Off the top of my head I’d expect at least these questions answered:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">What’s the final naming convention?</li><li class="">Will we have tools to auto-flag code that doesn’t follow it, and can auto-fix it?</li><li class="">Will we clang-format everything while we’re at it?</li><li class="">Will we run clang modernizer to move code to C++11 / C++14 idioms while we’re doing all this?</li><li class="">What’s the timeline for this change?</li><li class="">Is it just a single huge commit?</li><li class="">After the monorepo and GitHub move?</li><li class="">Is there a dev meeting roundtable scheduled?</li><li class="">What tooling exists to ease transition?</li><li class="">Out-of-tree LLVM backends are a normal thing. They use internal LLVM APIs that should all be auto-updatable, has this been tried?</li><li class="">Some folks have significant non-upstream code. Have they signed up to remedy that situation before the deadline (either by upstreaming or trying out auto-update scripts)?</li></ul></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">LLD and LLDB are indeed good small-scale experiments. However, I think the rest of the project is quite different in the impact such a change would have. LLVM and clang expose many more C++ APIs, and have many more out-of-tree changes (either on top of upstream, or in sub-folders such as backends or clang tools). They also have many more contributors affected, and not all those contributors have the same constraints, making this much more complex. So far this discussion hasn’t seemed to care about these concerns, and I’m worried we’re about to burn a bunch of bridges. Maybe I missed this part of the discussion in the 100+ emails! Sorry if I did… but again, a simple updated RFC would solve everything.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Thanks for the detailed list here. I have no idea what the status of most of these are - it sounds like you’re generally asking “what is the plan?” beyond LLD. :-)</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Rui, what are your thoughts on next steps? LLDB seems like a logical step, particularly because it uses its own naming convention that is completely unlike the rest of the project.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>-Chris</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">The reason that I personally pivoted to believe that a “do everything all at once in one commit generated by Rui’s script” approach was the right thing was seeing how lld contributors were able to cleanly move forward even when they have significant out of tree changes - they merged to the N-1 commit, then ran Rui's script on *their* trees, and were caught up with commit N. This seems to have provided a very smooth transition path, where the conversion was merely a bump in the road, not a major mountain to climb over.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That sounds fine to me. I just want to make sure everyone knows they’re about to have to climb a little hill. Surprise hills are the worst.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">In any case, I hope that we as a community don’t end up in a place where we are afraid of doing sweeping changes that make the codebase better.</span></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Sure the current naming is ugly and inconsistent, but honestly I don’t really care about naming. The one upside I see from this change is the same clang-format has brought: we can finally stop picking nits and arguing about stuff that doesn’t matter.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree that we should be able to make sweeping changes. I’m saying that I don’t think the direction I see us going in right now seems like it’ll work out well, and it seems easy to address my worries.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">It is important to continually reinvest in the health of the codebase, and it isn’t bad to incentivize people to merge their changes upstream.</span></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Agreed. However, as you know very well, merging upstream changes isn’t something that’s done over a weekend. First people have to know that a large change is coming and they probably should plan for upstreaming. Second we should give these folks enough time to do the upstreaming, and leave them enough slack in case they fall behind.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Being overwhelmingly afraid of ‘breaking history’ is a path that leads stagnation and ultimate replacement by newer technologies. There are many other projects that have suffered this fate, usually for a combination of reasons including things like this.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""><div class="">Again, this concern is small compared to the others I’ve expressed. Let’s have it as one item on the list of things we want answers to before moving forward. I think the rest of what I’m raising is much more important.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>