<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 16, 2016, at 10:04 PM, Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">> Can you elaborate what kind of runtime failure is the reciprocal transformation triggering?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Yes. It was along the lines of:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> {<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> float x = a / c;<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> float y = b / c;<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> if (y == 1.0f) {<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> // do some processing for when 'b' and 'c' are equal<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> } else {<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> // do other processing<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> }<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> use(x, y);<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> }</span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Of course they understood they could easily change this code once they understood the issue.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">But the fact that it "failed" for non-edge-case values of 'c', they were worried. As an example of the non-edge-case aspect, when 'c' is 41.0f (and so of course 'b' is 41.0f), intuitively they felt that this “would work precisely”, even with fast-math. Once they understood more, they agreed this was reasonable with fast-math, but they had the underlying concern that if they encountered one case where 'num' and 'den' were equal (and non-edge-case), yet 'num / den' wasn't precisely 1.0f, then even if they fixed this situation where they encountered it, it might be lurking elsewhere in their code, and so they wanted to disable that transformation.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Thanks for elaborating.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’d be reluctant to call this situation a real use-case though.</div><div>Is the the distinction on reciprocal really make sense here? This user can have the same “surprising" anywhere in their code-base with reassociation as well: </div><div><br class=""></div><div>void foo (float a, float b) {</div><div> float x = a - b; </div><div> if (x == 0) </div><div> … // only if a == b</div><div>}</div><div><br class=""></div><div>That would sound totally reasonable, unless foo is inlined and reassociation would lead to a non-zero value for x even when a and b passed in to foo "if it wasn’t inlined" would be identical!</div><div><br class=""></div><div>(Reminds me somehow of a client that was bitten by nnan: their assumption was that as long as they didn’t introduce NaN in the program everything was fine. However with fast-math some transformations were introducing NaN where there wasn’t before and propagating to other computation that were transformed under the assumption that no NaN would show up, it also turns out that making the code safe against NaN and efficient at the same time is hard, especially when the code itself it compiled with fast-math).</div><div><br class=""></div><div>— </div><div>Mehdi</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""><br class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:mehdi.amini@apple.com" class="">mehdi.amini@apple.com</a> [<a href="mailto:mehdi.amini@apple.com" class="">mailto:mehdi.amini@apple.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:11 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kaylor, Andrew <<a href="mailto:andrew.kaylor@intel.com" class="">andrew.kaylor@intel.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>; Nicolai Hähnle <<a href="mailto:nhaehnle@gmail.com" class="">nhaehnle@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast' flag implying all fast-math-flags<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Nov 16, 2016, at 6:22 PM, Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> ... except that Warren’s proposal that started this discussion seems to imply that he</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> has a use case that requires reciprocals to be turned off separately.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Just to close this loose end, yes I have a use case.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Specifically, we have a customer that turns on '‑ffast‑math', but was getting a runtime failure due to the reciprocal-transformation being done. </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Can you elaborate what kind of runtime failure is the reciprocal transformation triggering? <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">— <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Mehdi<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">They don't want turn off fast‑math because they like the performance improvement, and can live with the imprecision in most cases. So they wanted to suppress just the reciprocal-transformation. I intended to tell them the solution was simple: use '‑ffast‑math ‑fno‑reciprocal‑math'. But on trying it myself, I ran into the issue here.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">-Warren</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Kaylor, Andrew [<a href="mailto:andrew.kaylor@intel.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:andrew.kaylor@intel.com</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:13 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Mehdi Amini <<a href="mailto:mehdi.amini@apple.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mehdi.amini@apple.com</a>>; Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</a>>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>; Nicolai Hähnle <<a href="mailto:nhaehnle@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">nhaehnle@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>RE: [llvm-dev] RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast' flag implying all fast-math-flags</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I don’t really like the idea of updating checks of UnsafeAlgebra() to depend on all of the other flags. It seems like it would be preferable to look at each optimization and figure out which flags it actually requires. I suspect that in many cases the “new” flag (i.e. allowing reassociation, etc.) will be what is actually needed anyway.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I would be inclined to agree with Niolai’s suggestion of combining all the flags related to value safety, except that Warren’s proposal that started this discussion seems to imply that he has a use case that requires reciprocals to be turned off separately.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">-Andy</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a name="_MailEndCompose" class=""></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a name="_____replyseparator" class=""></a><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">llvm-dev [<a href="mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">mailto:llvm-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Mehdi Amini via llvm-dev<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, November 16, 2016 8:55 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</span></a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</span></a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Consider changing the semantics of 'fast' flag implying all fast-math-flags</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:59 PM, Ristow, Warren <<a href="mailto:warren.ristow@sony.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">warren.ristow@sony.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Hi,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks for the quick feedback. I see your points, but I have a few questions/comments. I'll start at the end of the previous post:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> ...</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> I think these are valuable problems to solve, but you should tackle them piece by piece:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> 1) the clang part of overriding the individual FMF and emitting the right IR is the first thing to fix.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">> 2) the backend is still using the global UnsafeFPMath and it should be killed.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I addressed this point (2) for the reciprocal aspect in the patch, but of course that wasn't useful without doing something about (1).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Regarding (1), over at<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">https://reviews.llvm.org/D26708#596610</span></a>, David made the same point that it should be done in Clang. I can understand that, but I wonder whether having the concept of the 'fast' flag in the IR that implies all the other FMF makes sense? I'm not seeing a good reason for it, but since this is very new to me, I can easily imagine I'm missing the big picture.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">For example, in the LLVM IR (<a href="http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: purple;" class="">http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#fast-math-flags</span></a>) the fast-math flags 'nnan', 'ninf', 'nsz', 'arcp' and 'fast’ are defined. Except for 'fast', each of these has a fairly specific definition of what they mean. For example, for 'arcp':</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> arcp => "Allow optimizations to use the reciprocal of an argument rather</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> than perform division."</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">'fast' is unusual, in that it describes a fairly generic set of aggressive floating-point optimizations:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may dramatically</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate). This flag implies</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> all the others."</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Very loosely, 'fast' means "all the aggressive FP-transformations that are not controlled by one of the other 4, plus it implies all the other 4". If for terminology, we call those additional aggressive optimizations 'aggr', then we have:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> 'fast' == 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + 'nsz' + 'arcp'</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So as I see it, if we want to disable only one of the other ones (like 'arcp', in my case), there isn't any way to express that with these IR flags defined this way. In short, we cannot turn on all the flags besides 'arcp'. To do that, what we want is that somehow for the Clang switches:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> '-ffast-math -fno-reciprocal-math'</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">to ultimately result in LLVM IR that has the following flags on in appropriate FP ops:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> 'aggr' + 'nnan' + 'ninf' + ‘nsz'</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Make sense, I missed that we can’t *subtract* from fast at the IR level.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I wouldn’t be opposed to have something along the line of “aggr”, but there is a tradeoff: some transformation may be harder to guard with this model.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Maybe that could be a starting point: changing the “UnsafeAlgebra” bit in the FMF to be “aggr” you mention and replace all the query to FastMathFlags::UnsafeAlgebra() to return true if all the bits are set in the Flags. This alone should be nothing more than a mechanical change I believe.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">The important part is then auditing all the users of UnsafeAlgebra() in the middle end and check if they can be “downgraded” to aggr safely: i.e. if they don’t need aggr *and* another flag.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">— <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Mehdi<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p class=""></o:p></p><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">But I don't see a way to express 'aggr' in the IR. We could do this, if we change the definition of the IR 'fast' flag to remove that sentence about implying all the others:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> fast => "Allow algebraically equivalent transformations that may dramatically</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> change results in floating point (e.g. reassociate).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">(If we do something like that, we may want to change the name from 'fast' to something else (like 'aggr'), to avoid tying it too closely to the concept of the '-ffast-math' switch.)</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">As an aside, I don't know if the "reassociate" example is the only other transformation that's allowed by 'fast' (I presume it isn't), but I think reassociation would be better expressed by a separate flag, which could then be controlled independently via '-f[no]-associative-math' switch. Not having that flag exist separately in the FMF is the origin of PR27372. But creating that flag and using it in the appropriate places would still run into these problems of 'fast' implying all the others, which would make it impossible to disable reassociation while leaving all the other FMF transformations enabled.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">To ask a concrete question using the current definition of 'fast' (which includes enabling reassociation, as the LLVM IR documentation of FMF says), how can we express in the IR that reciprocal-transformations are not allowed, but reassociation is allowed?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So the bottom line is that I do see there are issues in Clang that are relevant. But as long as 'fast' means "'aggr' plus all the other FMF transformations", I don't see how we can effectively disable a subset of those other FMF transformations (while leaving 'aggr' transformations, such as reassociation, enabled). With that in mind, my patch took one step in having 'fast' no longer imply all the others.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">-Warren</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>