<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'><br><hr id="zwchr"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Michael Zolotukhin" <mzolotukhin@apple.com><br><b>To: </b>"Hal Finkel" <hfinkel@anl.gov><br><b>Cc: </b>"Sanjoy Das" <sanjoy@playingwithpointers.com>, "llvm-dev" <llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org>, "Michael V Zolotukhin" <michael.v.zolotukhin@intel.com>, "tyler nowicki" <tyler.nowicki@gmail.com><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, May 16, 2016 8:20:05 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [llvm-dev] Working on FP SCEV Analysis<br><br>
<br class=""><div><blockquote class=""><div class="">On May 16, 2016, at 5:35 PM, Hal Finkel via llvm-dev <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class=""><hr id="zwchr"></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><blockquote style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">From: "Sanjoy Das via llvm-dev" <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br class="">To: <a href="mailto:escha@apple.com" class="" target="_blank">escha@apple.com</a><br class="">Cc: "llvm-dev" <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>, "Michael V Zolotukhin" <<a href="mailto:michael.v.zolotukhin@intel.com" class="" target="_blank">michael.v.zolotukhin@intel.com</a>><br class="">Sent: Monday, May 16, 2016 7:31:20 PM<br class="">Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] Working on FP SCEV Analysis<br class=""><br class="">Hi Escha,<br class=""><br class="">via llvm-dev wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="">One thought I’ve had about this in the past —<br class=""><br class="">SCEV is useful for proving two expressions are equivalent (in<br class="">general,<br class="">not just specifically for loop induction variables). This gets a<br class="">little<br class="">bit trickier with fast-math; for example, suppose two expressions<br class="">are<br class="">equivalent, but *only* with reassociativity allowed?<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">This isn't too different from "sext(a + b) == sext(a) + sext(b) only<br class="">if the addition is nsw".<br class=""><br class="">However, it wasn't clear to me from the lang-ref what the fastmath<br class="">flags really mean. What is the semantics of a program that computes<br class="">((a +fast b) +fast c) when ((a + b) + c) != (a + (b + c))?<br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">This is often true, and it is neither UB nor poison. The user has given the compiler the freedom to choose whatever the compiler decides will be most-efficient to compute. "fast math" is an odd concept in that sense. It is giving the compiler the freedom to change the program semantics to some extent.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote>It’s possible to make an infinite loop finite with fast math if the primary IV is float. Is it acceptable behavior too? What I mean is that if we have</div><div>for (float i = 0.0; i < HUGE_FLOAT_NUMBER; i += 0.5) {</div><div> ...</div><div>}</div><div id="DWT24806">we might never reach HUGE_FLOAT_NUMBER, as at some point i+1.0 = i in float (or am I totally wrong here?). However, when analyzing this loop, we might find its trip count to be exactly HUGE_FLOAT_NUMBER*2. There are all kinds of odd stuff with floats in this area, but probably if ‘-ffast-math’ is provided, we’re fine.</div></blockquote>Great question. So, if I paraphrase the intent of "fast math" to be, "I'm only thinking about these floating-point numbers as real numbers, you can do the same", then I think the answer to your question is yes. Furthermore, that would certainly speed things up. ;)<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div></div><div><br class=""></div><div id="DWT24870">I’m also very interested in specific cases we want to catch here. In the past Tyler (CCed) looked into this problem, but as far as I remember we decided that complexity/gains ratio was too low. Basically, I anticipate that the code to support this in SCEV will be at least as sophisticated as for integers, but in contrast to integers FP induction variables are much rarer in real world programs, at least to my impression.</div></blockquote>To be honest, I don't think that loops with a floating-point reduction variable, written as the loop counter, is common or worth much dedicated effort. I have seen this in real code, but it normally comes from people trying (perhaps too hard) to work around integer register pressure problems. The case that Elena presented, however:<br><br>> float fp_inc;<br>> <br>> float x = init;<br>> for (int i=0;i<N;i++){<br>> A[i] = x;<br>> x += fp_inc; // Loop invariant variable or constant<br>> }<br><br>is not uncommon. Being able to do something intelligent with this is worthwhile.<br><br> -Hal<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div></div><div><br class=""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Michael</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">-Hal</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><blockquote style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="">Does it<br class="">have UB (in which case we can't hoist fastmath arithmetic) or is it<br class="">more like poison? Depending on the answer, for fastmath we can<br class="">considering doing what we do today for nuw/nsw (which has its own set<br class="">of issues, but at least wouldn't require us to start from scratch).<br class=""><br class="">-- Sanjoy<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">LLVM Developers mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" class="" target="_blank">http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">Hal Finkel</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">Assistant Computational Scientist</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">Leadership Computing Facility</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">Argonne National Laboratory</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline ! important;" class="">LLVM Developers mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class=""><a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" class="" target="_blank">http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></blockquote><br><br><br>-- <br><div><span name="x"></span>Hal Finkel<br>Assistant Computational Scientist<br>Leadership Computing Facility<br>Argonne National Laboratory<span name="x"></span><br></div></div></body></html>