<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 6, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Renato Golin <<a href="mailto:renato.golin@linaro.org" class="">renato.golin@linaro.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">On 6 May 2016 at 22:57, Tanya Lattner <<a href="mailto:tanyalattner@llvm.org" class="">tanyalattner@llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">The major weapon of harassers is arguing whether something is actually<br class="">harassing. It is difficult to enforce a CoC if you have to have a month long<br class="">nasty argument about whether it was violated. It burns out people like you.<br class=""></blockquote><br class="">The major weapon about enforcers is *not* wanting to argue.<br class=""><br class="">Harassment is a very complicated issue that involves not only actions<br class="">but points of view.<br class=""><br class="">For instance, you thought Joachim was joking, I didn't. If he was<br class="">joking, that would have been very bad taste. If he was not, that would<br class="">have been a perfectly valid and non aggressive way to understanding<br class="">the range of your statement.<br class=""><br class="">Depending on your *point of view*, from that point forwards, things<br class="">would roll down in completely opposite paths.<br class=""><br class="">If you don't discuss what is and what isn't harassment, or if you're<br class="">not prepared to understand that communications will breakdown very<br class="">easily, then you're taking an extremist point of view in regards to<br class="">the code and giving every one that has had fears so far, the right to<br class="">do so. I'm not saying *you* are, but that is the consequence if you<br class="">(or anyone else) would have been.<br class=""><br class="">Now, assuming that he was joking, that would have been bad, but how<br class="">bad? It would depend on how many times it happened in the past (serial<br class="">offender, see the autism page I shared earlier), or if the affected<br class="">person asked him to stop and he didn't, or if he did this on the list<br class="">or out of it, etc. Those are all parts of the spectrum of harassment,<br class="">and they have to be dealt with in *very* different ways.<br class=""><br class="">If we advocate on our CoC that we do not take a spectrum approach to<br class="">harassment, and that some unnamed people are the ones that choose what<br class="">is harassment and what is not, than you're telling all prospective<br class="">members that we essentially don't care about their opinions and their<br class="">behaviours will be monitored and potentially curbed at our own<br class="">discretion.<br class=""><br class="">One may think it's ok to do that to potential offenders, but you<br class="">cannot tell who is an offender and who is not just by looking at which<br class="">T-Shirt they're wearing. Doing so is the most classic form of<br class="">prejudice.<br class=""><br class="">I personally do not see this as the role of the CoC, and from my<br class="">conversations with Chandler and others on this list and the review,<br class="">this is not what they are thinking either. I'd rather deal with<br class="">offenders *after* they have offended than risking have my prejudice<br class="">affect the quality of the tools I build. It would also show how<br class="">efficient our process is against harassment.<br class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Renato,</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I am not going to argue with you anymore. I have stated my opinion that I think the Code of Conduct needs to be more explicit than “be nice”. I have said that I like the list of what is harassment in the draft. I gave the above link as the backing for why I feel that way. I <i class="">have not</i> said that no discussion needs to happen about what is harassment. Please stop twisting my words. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>-Tanya</div><div><br class=""></div><div> </div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br class="">cheers,<br class="">--renato<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>