<div dir="ltr">It seems to me the intent of that section is intelligible to those of us who have been spending too much time dealing with these issues, but seems wrong to everyone else: If another thread updates [X0] and then [X3] (with an intervening fence), this thread may see the new value of [X3], but the old value of [X0], violating the data dependence. This makes it incorrect to use such a load for e.g. Java final fields without a fence. I agree that the text is at best unclear, but presumably that was indeed the intent?</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:22 AM, John Brawn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:John.Brawn@arm.com" target="_blank">John.Brawn@arm.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">> I haven't touched ARMv8 in a few years so I'm rusty on the non-temporal<br>
> details for that ISA. I lifted this example from here:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.den0024a/CJACGJJF.html" target="_blank">
http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.den0024a/CJACGJJF.html</a><br>
><br>
> Which is correct?<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</span><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’ve confirmed that this example in the Cortex-A programmers guide is wrong, and it should<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">hopefully be corrected in a future version.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Hans Boehm [mailto:<a href="mailto:hboehm@google.com" target="_blank">hboehm@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 14 January 2016 03:01<br>
<b>To:</b> Tim Northover<br>
<b>Cc:</b> JF Bastien; John Brawn; <a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>; nd<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: non-temporal fencing in LLVM IR<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with Tim's assessment for ARM. That's interesting; I wasn't previously aware of that instruction.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My understanding is that Alpha would have the same problem for normal loads.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm all in favor of more systematic handling of the fences associated with x86 non-temporal accesses.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">AFAICT, nontemporal loads and stores seem to have different fencing rules on x86, none of them very clear. Nontemporal stores should probably ideally use an SFENCE. Locked instructions seem to be documented to work with MOVNTDQA. In
both cases, there seems to be only empirical evidence as to which side(s) of the nontemporal operations they should go on?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I finally decided that I was OK with using a LOCKed top-of-stack update as a fence in Java on x86. I'm significantly less enthusiastic for C++. I also think that risks unexpected coherence miss problems, though they would probably be
very rare. But they would be very surprising if they did occur.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Tim Northover <<a href="mailto:t.p.northover@gmail.com" target="_blank">t.p.northover@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I haven't touched ARMv8 in a few years so I'm rusty on the non-temporal<br>
> details for that ISA. I lifted this example from here:<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.den0024a/CJACGJJF.html" target="_blank">
http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.den0024a/CJACGJJF.html</a><br>
><br>
> Which is correct?<br>
<br>
FWIW, I agree with John here. The example I'd give for the unexpected<br>
behaviour allowed in the spec is:<br>
<br>
.Lwait_for_data:<br>
ldr x0, [x3]<br>
cbz x0, .Lwait_for_data<br>
ldnp x2, x1, [x0]<br>
<br>
where another thread first writes to a buffer then tells us where that<br>
buffer is. For a normal ldp, the address dependency rule means we<br>
don't need a barrier or acquiring load to ensure we see the real data<br>
in the buffer. For ldnp, we would need a barrier to prevent stale<br>
data.<br>
<br>
I suspect this is actually even closer to the x86 situation than what<br>
the guide implies (which looks like a straight-up exposed pipeline to<br>
me, beyond even what Alpha would have done).<br>
<br>
Cheers.<br>
<span style="color:#888888"><br>
<span>Tim.</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>