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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/14/2015 01:25 PM, Chandler
Carruth via llvm-dev wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CAAwGriEyagGh_Wf7YiH_vf4UijuTyOcyQYMxja4_q0iYThf6Fg@mail.gmail.com"
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<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:02 PM Renato Golin
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:renato.golin@linaro.org">renato.golin@linaro.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 14
October 2015 at 20:35, Tanya Lattner via llvm-dev<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Related specifically to the developers meeting, we are
growing quite<br>
> rapidly. For the past few years, we have been
increasing our attendance from<br>
> 50 at the start to now over 350 attendees. With this
many people (and many<br>
> new to the community), it seems important to have a
code of conduct to refer<br>
> to and possibly *prevent* any incidents from happening.
And for some people<br>
> (not sure exact percentage), it makes them feel more
comfortable attending a<br>
> conference that has a code of conduct.<br>
<br>
Just an honest and simple question: would it make sense to
have a<br>
different code of conduct for meetings and the rest?<br>
<br>
I know it sounds like a bad idea, but my rationale is that
maybe this<br>
would at least solve some of the points that socially inept
people<br>
feel pressure on the current proposal.<br>
<br>
Because the consequences of a physical meeting can be a lot
tougher<br>
than any electronic one, and because timing is of the
essence, the<br>
wording *has* to be stronger and an executive decision has
to be<br>
implemented.<br>
<br>
But such strong wording and harsh unappealable consequences
do make<br>
us, of the anti-social variety, very frightened. We grew in
a world<br>
that never made sense, and we have suffered our childhoods
and<br>
adulthoods in constant fear of irrational (to our minds)
reprimands.<br>
This is not a simple matter, it's quite real and have made
me<br>
seriously consider many times leaving the open source realm
for good.<br>
I have left jobs and regressed in my career because of
things like<br>
that.<br>
<br>
From the very wording in the proposed CoC, we don't want to
leave<br>
anyone behind, including physical and mental disabilities.
If that's<br>
true, and we really mean it, than imposing such a harsh CoC
from the<br>
majority of opinions is exactly the opposite of that. People
like me<br>
are clearly not the majority, the NAS UK estimates 1 every
100 people<br>
in England has some form of autism, but that's the whole
point of a<br>
CoC, is to not forget about the people with some form of
fragility.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is an extremely large difference between fragility
and an inability to be polite and respectful.</div>
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</blockquote>
Chandler, I think your opening here is a bit quick to dismiss
Renato's position. Your following text is more reasonable, but you
first sentence comes across as a bit harsh. <br>
<br>
(For the record, I'd normally not have said anything, but since this
is specifically in a thread about community social norms...)<br>
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<div>I do not think there is a useful way for us to encourage
and welcome individuals who, for whatever reason including
medical reasons, are literally *incapable* of interacting in
a social setting in a civil, polite, and respectful manner.
That would be a no-win situation. But reality is not this
cut and dry or black and white.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have both friends and colleagues with autism and other
severe mental, social, and cultural challenges. And yet,
they are not *incapable* of this. Certainly, sometimes, it
is a significantly greater challenge for them to understand
why people react in the way that they do. However, they take
on that challenge and learn and succeed at being wonderful
people. Do they have to work harder than I do? Some of them
probably do. Do I try to sympathize, remain patient, and
help them as much as I can? Absolutely. Does any of this
mean it is *ok for them to be disrepectful?* Absolutely not.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I would read Renato's point as being in a round-about-way a request
for help. How should he (or anyone) not familiar with the existing
norms within the community expect to function? Part of learning is
making mistakes and being corrected. Particular for someone with a
form of autism, those corrections may need to include an explanation
of what not to do again and why. I think part of Renato's concern -
it definitely is part of mine! - is that he might say something,
unintentionally offend someone, and not get a chance to learn from
it.<br>
<br>
For the record, I have personally run into this in the past. I've
managed to seriously offend a couple of folks and had *absolutely*
no idea why until a third party took me aside and explained what I
did and how it was perceived. That doesn't change the fact that I'm
still responsible for having given offense or that I didn't do my
best to make amends, but the chance to learn without it being "game
over" is key.<br>
<br>
Now, obviously, providing that learning opportunity should not be
taken too far. If someone's safety is in question, "game over" is
*absolutely* the right response. Nor does it mean that there can
not be serious consequences. We simply need to keep in mind that
behavior can change, and that offense may not have been (probably
wasn't) intentional. If we keep that in mind and steer towards
moderation and informal correction (as we have in the past), I don't
see there being any inherent conflict here. <br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a tradeoff between effort on your part to be
polite and respectful, potentially *a tremendous amount of
effort*, and both causing direct and in some cases
irreversible emotional damage to someone and furthering an
entrenched and harmful bias in our community as well as the
larger industry.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think it is reasonable to ask people to undertake the
effort, even though for some it will be a very significant
effort. </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
+1 to this. <br>
<br>
(Nothing I said above is intended to dispute this in any way. If it
seems that way, my wording was poor and please ask me to clarity.)<br>
<blockquote
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>For example, this discussion and getting a strong and
effective code of conduct is a *tremendous* effort for me.
It is worth it. I couldn't think of a better cause to pour
my energy into than making more people feel welcome in our
open source community.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And I do want you to feel welcome here. I just *also*
want you to put forth the necessary effort to keep your
communication at the high standard we have here. And I have
seen you do so! I *know* that you are in fact capable of
communicating effectively *and* in line with the proposed
code of conduct. So I truly hope you do not feel
discouraged.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Chandler</div>
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