[llvm-dev] [RFC] Propeller: A frame work for Post Link Optimizations

Mon Sep 30 13:49:25 PDT 2019

I guess Eric means full program optimization/cross module optimization
using MIR.   This is in theory workable in full LTO style, but not in
ThinLTO style which works on summary data.  As we have discussed,
eliminating monolithic style optimization is the key design goal.

This was also briefly discussed in one of the previous replies I sent.
There are other benefits of doing this in linker such as handling prebuilt
libraries such as libc.

David

On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 1:39 PM Teresa Johnson <tejohnson at google.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 1:34 PM Sriraman Tallam <tmsriram at google.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 1:27 PM Eric Christopher <echristo at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 12:31 PM Sriraman Tallam <tmsriram at google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 12:26 PM Eric Christopher <echristo at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 8:25 AM Sriraman Tallam <tmsriram at google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 10:36 PM Eric Christopher <
>>> echristo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 2:08 PM Sriraman Tallam via llvm-dev
>>> >> >> <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:16 PM Eli Friedman <
>>> efriedma at quicinc.com> wrote:
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > > -----Original Message-----
>>> >> >> > > > From: Sriraman Tallam <tmsriram at google.com>
>>> >> >> > > > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 9:43 AM
>>> >> >> > > > To: Eli Friedman <efriedma at quicinc.com>
>>> >> >> > > > Cc: Xinliang David Li <xinliangli at gmail.com>; llvm-dev <
>>> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
>>> >> >> > > > Subject: [EXT] Re: [llvm-dev] [RFC] Propeller: A frame work
>>> for Post Link
>>> >> >> > > > Optimizations
>>> >> >> > > >
>>> >> >> > > > >
>>> >> >> > > > > > > Why are you proposing to add a bunch of options to
>>> clang to manipulate
>>> >> >> > > > LLVM
>>> >> >> > > > > > code generation, given none of those options are
>>> actually used for Propeller
>>> >> >> > > > > > workflows?
>>> >> >> > > > > >
>>> >> >> > > > > > Where do you suggest labelling and section options
>>> should exist?  We
>>> >> >> > > > > > looked at  basic block sections to be similar to
>>> function sections in
>>> >> >> > > > > > terms of option handling?
>>> >> >> > > > >
>>> >> >> > > > > Generating bitcode with/without propeller doesn't actually
>>> affect the
>>> >> >> > > > generated bitcode, right?  So you could say that Propeller
>>> is enabled with "-Wl,--
>>> >> >> > > > enable-propeller", and not change clang at all.  I'm not a
>>> fan of adding options
>>> >> >> > > > just because we can.  If basic block sections are only used
>>> as a sort of secret
>>> >> >> > > > handshake between the propeller compiler and the propeller
>>> linker, we can
>>> >> >> > > > change that interface later, if we want; if we expose it as
>>> a clang option, we're
>>> >> >> > > > committing to making basic block sections continue to work
>>> the same way until
>>> >> >> > > > the end of time.
>>> >> >> > > >
>>> >> >> > > > The generated MIR code is slightly different as the later
>>> passes have
>>> >> >> > > > more CFI instructions, basic block labels and extra direct
>>> jumps which
>>> >> >> > > > would have been fall throughs otherwise.  So, some llvm
>>> option is
>>> >> >> > > > needed.
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > At link (LTO codegen) time, yes.  But clang's bitcode
>>> generation doesn't change; only LTO code generation in lld changes.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > I see what you mean here.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > > I envisioned that basic block sections could also be useful
>>> on its own
>>> >> >> > > > outside of propeller.   Hence, we made it like
>>> function-sections with
>>> >> >> > > > a separate option -fbasicblock-sections.  The propeller
>>> option is an
>>> >> >> > > > umbrella option to make it easy to invoke Propeller.
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > I don't think this is really true.  Basic block labels means
>>> "insert labels that are useful for propeller profiling", and basic block
>>> sections means "split the function into multiple chunks that are convenient
>>> for propeller optimization".  So it's really only useful for propeller-like
>>> workflows.  And I'd be concerned that future changes to propeller could
>>> affect the behavior of these options in the future, if the behavior isn't
>>> specified in some rigorous way.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > The idea of basic block sections was seeded by Rui Ueyama.  When
>>> basic
>>> >> >> > block sections was originally looked at, Propeller was not
>>> designed.
>>> >> >> > We looked at basic block sections as finer granularity than
>>> function
>>> >> >> > sections.  Section prefix based code layout where you just create
>>> >> >> > smaller code sections and let the linker do what it does today
>>> would
>>> >> >> > have much better results with basic block sections.  Symbol
>>> ordering
>>> >> >> > file with basic block sections to do random orderings can be done
>>> >> >> > without invoking Propeller.  Function sections has found uses
>>> after it
>>> >> >> > was invented like Identical Code Folding.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I'm not sure that function sections are entirely an apt comparison
>>> >> >> here for a few reasons:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>  - function sections mostly gave an easy way to do ICF - using MIR
>>> or
>>> >> >> LLVM IR are also fairly effective means as is just using the
>>> linker to
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I did not mean to suggest we should do folding with basic block
>>> sections and I am aware of the issues, though I am not ruling out the
>>> possibility.  We had briefly brainstormed this.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > AFAICT, Function Sections was not invented to do ICF.  Function
>>> sections was used for linker garbage collection and global code layout and
>>> when we first worked on ICF for gold much later, we found function sections
>>> to be useful without which it would have been much  harder.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> They're both in the same arena.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> compare bytes. Using function sections can still run into language
>>> >> >> specific problems as well, hence why icf=safe vs icf=all. Though
>>> pcc's
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Agreed, and I would like to humbly suggest that I added those
>>> options to gold originally and am aware of that.
>>> >>
>>> >> Of course, but context is helpful for discussion and for others in the
>>> >> future understanding the discussion.
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> recent work helps out a little bit via significant address
>>> >> >> determination in the front end
>>> >> >>  - order files and other similar mechanisms work based on
>>> externally
>>> >> >> visible symbols and are fairly straightforward to use in an ABI
>>> safe
>>> >> >> way (no function -> function fallthrough for example)
>>> >> >>  - basic block sections can run into the multiple entry point
>>> problems
>>> >> >> depending on how they're laid out as well as other ABI and
>>> visibility
>>> >> >> issues
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> This can likely be done safely, but there are definitely some
>>> concerns
>>> >> >> here with how you want to enable the use of basic block
>>> >> >> labels/sections.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I would like to expose basic block sections independently and let
>>> me talk more about one more effort we are trying to do.  Independent of
>>> Propeller, we are looking at a machine learning based approach to do code
>>> layout at link time.  I won't go into the details of the features but
>>> having basic block sections allows us to naturally feed the native object
>>> files into a black box that would try several different reorderings of the
>>> sections and learn a model.  We looked at basic block sections as the
>>> building block on top of which Propeller was built.  I don't think it would
>>> be the only application, just my opinion.
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Again a question of "why at the object level rather than a low level
>>> >> IR" seems like something we should really explore the tradeoffs for at
>>> >> more length.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This is so that we can do inter-procedural basic block ordering.
>>> Doing this at link time with all the basic blocks exposes a lot more
>>> inter-procedural ordering opportunities.  At a low-level IR, we are still
>>> limited to intra-module basic block reordering.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Seems like you could spend just as much work and reliability on making
>>> MIR/late stage LTO compilation handle this for you?
>>>
>>
>> Full LTO yes, Thin LTO ... no.  We want this to be scalable and ThinLTO
>> is what we are more interested in.
>>
>
> As Sri said, we need to be able to use this for ThinLTO, and I'm not sure
> how you would do whole program BB layout in ThinLTO which does the whole
> program analysis much much earlier than MIR. Eric - did you have something
> else in mind or were you talking about Full LTO?
>
> Teresa
>
>
>> Thanks
>> Sri
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -eric
>>>
>>> > Thanks
>>> > Sri
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -eric
>>> >>
>>> >> > Thanks
>>> >> > Sri
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> -eric
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > In any case, if we're adding flags to clang other than "enable
>>> propeller", I think we should have a separate thread on cfe-dev to discuss
>>> them. We don't expose every possible LLVM optimization and code generation
>>> option through clang. Users have a strong expectation of stability for
>>> clang options, and that means we need to evaluate each new option
>>> carefully, to decide whether it's something we really want to support
>>> indefinitely.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Understood.
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > Thanks
>>> >> >> > Sri
>>> >> >> >
>>> >> >> > >
>>> >> >> > > -Eli
>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> >> > LLVM Developers mailing list
>>> >> >> > llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org
>>> >> >> > https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Teresa Johnson |  Software Engineer |  tejohnson at google.com |
>
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