[llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Tue Nov 19 07:19:21 PST 2019

Slack has a limited free history size. Not sure what discord has here, or if it even matters, but it could be why it's not considered an option.

Rob
________________________________
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org> on behalf of Zachary Turner via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:09 AM
To: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>
Cc: llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] Fwd: RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

Note there is also Slack, which does not have these problems.  Not sure why that keeps being overlooked

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 7:07 AM Zachary Turner <zturner at roblox.com<mailto:zturner at roblox.com>> wrote:
But is it better or worse than IRC in this regard?

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM Daniel Chapiesky via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Daniel Chapiesky <dchapiesky2 at gmail.com<mailto:dchapiesky2 at gmail.com>>
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions
To: Gaier, Bjoern <Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com<mailto:Bjoern.Gaier at horiba.com>>

Bjoern said:

" I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said Bjoern.

That and discussions won't be archived or usefully searchable - discord search is horrible

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 10:42 AM Gaier, Bjoern via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
Hey :/

It is weird for me to write something to this subject, because... as an newbie I kinda feel like not being 'allowed' to do so. I'm following the mailing list for quite a while and usually use it to ask questions. I'm not sure how to become a bigger part of the LLVM and if I'm suitable for it...
I often use Discord to stay in touch with friends and for my hobby (Furries) - however, I joined exactly one programming related server about Box2D (a physics library) , again to ask questions. I found it pretty difficult to use Discord for that, because there was one channel for asking questions. So I posted my question, but the next reply was to the previous subject, burying my question directly. So I think... this was bad :/ Sometimes you were lucky that people dug out your old questions but... that rarely happened.
Also the general chats were kinda silent...

Since I'm only asking questions here, I would like a system where questions are not being drowned by other discussions and the mailing list kinda works for me. Sure, after a while my message might be buried as well, but it takes longer then in Discord. Also the titles help me deciding if the subject is of interest for me or not...

Maybe that helped? Sorry if not >o<

-----Original Message-----
From: llvm-dev <llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev-bounces at lists.llvm.org>> On Behalf Of Kristina Brooks via llvm-dev
Sent: 18 November 2019 16:29
To: Chandler Carruth <chandlerc at gmail.com<mailto:chandlerc at gmail.com>>
Cc: llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>>
Subject: Re: [llvm-dev] RFC: Moving toward Discord and Discourse for LLVM's discussions

While I understand the difficulty regarding mailing lists especially if one isn't used to setting up mailboxes and filters to classify and label emails and do think a web forum may be easier to use, I would have concerns over Discord. Unlike IRC which has a fairly open protocol and many clients and open source server implementations, Discord is fairly hostile towards 3rd party clients, and has a concerning history with regards to privacy. While that may not be a concern for public channels, private messages are another matter entirely. The protocol isn't entirely friendly and is relatively new, which makes it inflexible to use compared to IRC. IRC clients are easy to leave in tmux sessions and reconnect, as opposed to Discord where something akin to a web browser is required for a somewhat stable client and 3rd party clients, aside from stability issues, are flat out against the terms of service (even if this aspect isn't actively enforced). On top of that there are too many out of scope features related to software project development, with Discord being far more than a transit provider, unlike what a lot of IRC networks are classed under. So as far as Discord goes, very strong -1 in my opinion.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM Chandler Carruth via llvm-dev <llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Short version:
> I've set up an LLVM Discord server for real time chat (similar to IRC) and an LLVM Discourse server for forums (similar to email lists):
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> Please join and use these new services. They are only partially set up and still very new, so don't hesitate to improve them and/or reach out to this thread with any issues you see or things you want to fix. Also, both services have dedicated feedback channels.
>
> Do feel free to use Discourse for technical discussions, although try not to create duplicate discussions (any more than you would between the lists and Bugzilla) and make sure the people you're having the discussion with are fine using Discourse instead of the email list. In case Discourse doesn't work out, we'll collect and archive everything so it isn't lost.
>
> Longer version & more details:
> During this year's Women in Compilers and Tools meeting, folks
> expressed very clearly that our communication systems cause a
> non-trivial amount of friction for new people trying to find out
> about, learn, or contribute to LLVM. Both IRC for chatting and mailing
> lists for longer-form discussions are unfamiliar, difficult, and often
> intimidating for newcomers. While I have long been a fan and resistant
> to change in these areas, the feedback from folks at WiCT was
> compelling and important for us as a community to address. Even if it
> means I have to let go of my precious IRC. ;]
>
> We talked to a bunch of people and looked at the options out there and the most promising ones were Discord for chatting and Discourse for longer-form discussions. Meike and I have set up both an initial Discord and Discourse server. You can find them here:
> https://discord.gg/xS7Z362
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3368bc108e8e
> &auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-a7135ce3448aed0736828c8
> badf539d389685869
>
> There is still a lot of work to be done. Notably, it'd be great for folks to clean up and improve the summaries for each of the groups in Discourse, and I'll be asking various people to help moderate on both Discourse and Discord. If you'd like to help out with a specific set of improvements to these, don't hesitate to reach out to me or Meike and we can get you set up. Some specific things we're already working on:
>
> Getting Discord verified with a nice URL.
> Archives of mailing lists on Discourse so you can search in one place, etc.
>
> See the plan here:
> https://hes32-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=https%
> 3a%2f%2fllvm.discourse.group%2ft%2fmirroring%2dand%2darchiving%2dllvm%
> 2dmailing%2dlists%2don%2ddiscourse%2f61&umid=61113acd-2468-4f46-b95e-3
> 368bc108e8e&auth=b6f66d00f8195cc5198eee21f0dbabe6af0a3180-ecf495cfb4c1
> 9b33b2115bb647dbc85b26fc4ca0
>
> Moving Discourse to forums.llvm.org<http://forums.llvm.org>.
> Documenting the best way to move to Discourse while preserving a similarly email-focused workflow.
>
>
> We're just adding these for now, but I'd like people to seriously try using them. While IRC has served us fairly well, I think it is one of the bigger barriers to entry. Our email lists are more effective, but also have had serious infrastructure challenges over the years: a constant flow of spam, bouncing for several major email providers, etc. Discourse has very powerful email-based workflows available and I think we should seriously consider moving to Discourse long-term instead of the email lists.
>
> I also want to say thanks to all the folks at the WiCT workshop for giving me and others feedback. I was pretty set in my ways around these kind of things, but hearing the kinds of challenges this has posed to people less established in the community was a real eye opener. It takes a lot to speak up like this, and I really appreciate it. I hope this also helps start to address these long-standing issues. Also a huge thanks to Tanya for organizing the WICT workshop and Meike for helping drive this message home to me and doing a bunch of the work getting these things set up. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her help, especially around Discord bots.
>
> -Chandler
> _______________________________________________
> LLVM Developers mailing list
> llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
Als GmbH eingetragen im Handelsregister Bad Homburg v.d.H. HRB 9816, USt.ID-Nr. DE 114 165 789 Geschäftsführer: Dr. Hiroshi Nakamura, Dr. Robert Plank, Markus Bode, Heiko Lampert, Takashi Nagano, Takeshi Fukushima. Junichi Tajika
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
_______________________________________________
LLVM Developers mailing list
llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org<mailto:llvm-dev at lists.llvm.org>
https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/attachments/20191119/b47be373/attachment.html>