[LLVMdev] [cfe-dev] RFC: Upcoming Build System Changes
james.molloy at arm.com
Mon Oct 31 01:32:04 PDT 2011
As have we. We have CMake wrappers and variable injection to make it work with our internal build system.
I also agree with the point that others have made – why reinvent the wheel? You already have use of a dedicated build system tool – Cmake – that is fit for purpose and while it may not generate *quite* as good a set of Makefiles as a hand-crafted solution would, is this really important? Is that 3 seconds of build time improvement really important?
Why not use a well known and respected build system tool like CMake that all sysadmins know, can hack, and removes the development burden from LLVM?
From: llvmdev-bounces at cs.uiuc.edu [mailto:llvmdev-bounces at cs.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Rotem, Nadav
Sent: 28 October 2011 15:09
To: Chandler Carruth; Daniel Dunbar
Cc: cfe-dev; LLVM Developers Mailing List
Subject: Re: [LLVMdev] [cfe-dev] RFC: Upcoming Build System Changes
We build our OpenCL SDK (for windows and Linux) using CMake. We’ve integrated LLVM’s Cmake hierarchy into our own (customizing LLVM external parameters like build and install directories, added passes, etc)
Migrating LLVM’s build system from CMake to something else would require us to change the way we currently do things.
From: llvmdev-bounces at cs.uiuc.edu [mailto:llvmdev-bounces at cs.uiuc.edu] On Behalf Of Chandler Carruth
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 03:35
To: Daniel Dunbar
Cc: cfe-dev; LLVM Developers Mailing List
Subject: Re: [LLVMdev] [cfe-dev] RFC: Upcoming Build System Changes
I have a very high level comment, and you may be able to directly shed light on it before I dig into a lot more detail.
Why not simply standardize on CMake? It's not my favorite tool, but it seems to work well, we have established usage of it, and several people involved in the project who understand how it works. It doesn't seem like a significantly more burdensome dependency than Python when developing, and it remains possible to build installable packages for the casual hacker.
I can see some objections to CMake, but it's not clear to me that they should carry the day. I'm also probably missing some.
The one I see most clearly is that the CMake build, as it stands, involves Too Much Magic. I don't at all disagree. That said, I strongly believe this could be completely addressed.
- If we moved to CMake as the standard build system, numerous kludgy aspects of the current build would go away. They are often in existence purely to support interoperation with the old system.
- It would be very straight forward to centralize all of the library dependencies and descriptions in the single top-level CMakeLists.txt file, making it easily consumable by your average developer. It would have a format no harder to edit or understand than the one you propose, and they would both (at worst) be unfamiliar to existing developers.
- It would likely improve the quality of our CMake builds by ensuring it was well tested and always in a consistent state.
- It already has a relatively optimized makefile-generation system, so we wouldn't need to re-invent this wheel again.
The biggest downside to making CMake the standard build system is the dependence on CMake to my eyes. However, among the cross-platform users of LLVM, I think CMake is often the preferred build system. I know of folks using it under xcode, visual studio, mingw, cygwin, and all flavors of Linux.
Anyways, I'm sure there are more considerations than just these, I just think it would be beneficial to seriously consider using an existing meta-build system rather than rolling our own.
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Daniel Dunbar <daniel at zuster.org> wrote:
As you might have inferred, I'm in the process of working on some changes to the
way LLVM builds. I have outlined a rough proposal below, unless there are any
major objections I will probably start committing stuff next week.
This message may be verbose, if you want the executive summary, skip
to 'What This
Means For Jane "LLVM Developer" Doe' at the bottom.
We currently maintain two build systems (make, CMake). This has a couple of
* Duplication: the two build systems duplicate a significant amount of implicit
logic (higher level dependencies), some config files, and other miscellaneous
* Maintenance: Some parts of the build systems requires regular maintenance
(the CMake file lists, CMake dependency lists, module structure). Having one
more thing to maintain is annoying.
* Inconsistency: The two build systems behave inconsistently in some ways. If
we want both to officially supported systems, it would be nice for them to
behave as identically as possible.
For example, CMake now uses explicit dependencies which are hard coded into
the CMake files, but the Makefiles work completely differently.
There are also other general issues with the way LLVM is built now:
* LLVM has a higher level structure for its organization, but this is not
explicit. LLVM is roughly organized into components (libraries, tools, etc.)
by directory. It would be nice to have this be more explicit.
* Much of the project build structure is implicit in the Makefiles or
CMakeFiles. It is not particularly explicit anywhere that, say, parts of
VMCore depend on building the Intrinsics, which depend on building tblgen.
* The Make system is not very efficient. We use recursive Makefiles which make
the current system (relatively) simple in some ways, but mean the Make build
is not nearly as scalable as it could be. In particular, the current
organization means the built is often serialized on something that is not a
strict dependency. It also makes it much more likely to do things like a
stampeding link of all the tools, even though many tools could have been
* Move both build systems to use explicit library dependencies, in a clean
fashion. The CMake files do this now, but I don't think it has been made
clear to developers when they are supposed to edit these files, or how (other
than when something breaks, I guess).
* Explicitly describe as much of the project structure as necessary to support
builds. This means explicitly specifying how the project is organized, and
the dependencies among the components required to build (e.g., Intrinsics
I believe a number of other projects/users (FreeBSD, fbuild) have
built there own
build system for LLVM. Encoding the project structure clearly should make it
easier for such projects, or for other future users that want to do the same.
This should make it easier to experiment with the build system, for example
we could just directly generate good Makefiles for our project, or could
experiment with systems like Ninja which expect to be targetted by a
generator of some kind.
My initial proposal is focused at moving us to use explicit library
dependencies, but paves the way for centralizing more "build systemy" stuff in
* Every LLVM "component" (roughly corresponds to each place we have a Makefile
or CMakeLists.txt currently) will get a 'LLVMBuild.txt' file.
This file will be an LLVM specific description of that component. Initially,
it will look something like this::
# The kind of component this is (currently library, tool, build tool). More
# types will be defined over time.
type = Library
# The name of the component.
name = VMCore
# The name of the component to logically group this in. This is just for
# organization purposes.
parent = Libraries
# The names of the library components that are also required when linking
# with this library. More on this later.
required_libraries = Support
The exact structure of the format is TBD (and easy to change), currently the
format is INI style but I may decide to change to JSON once all the pieces
are in place.
The LLVM web pages will have clear documentation on what these files should
look like, what is required, what is supported, and so on.
* I will add a new tool in utils/llvm-build which is designed to load and work
with these files. This tool will be written in Python, and the expectation is
that it can be run at configure time.
TO BE CLEAR: I intend to introduce a hard dependency on requiring Python in
order to build LLVM.
For the Makefiles, this is no worse than requiring Perl, so I don't think
there is much to argue with.
For CMake, this is a new dependency. However, I feel this is unavoidable:
* I see no way to support multiple build systems including CMake without
either introducing a dependency on some extra tool (which can be shared),
or duplicating a significant amount of logic in CMake.
I believe that duplicating logic is worse than adding the Python
dependency, and I think we already have more CMake code (a relatively
horrible language) than can be expected for most LLVM developers to deal
Additionally, we already require Python for running our tests, so anyone
doing serious LLVM development should have it.
The one use case I believe this particularly hurts is users who just want to
download and play with LLVM, but I believe the Right Answer (tm) for that
case would be for us to provide nice installer packages anyway.
* utils/llvm-build will be run during configure time (both for Make and CMake),
* Generate the library dependency information required to link tools, in
whatever format makes the most system for the build system in use.
* Generate a C++ .inc file containing the dependency table for use by
llvm-config (which I am going to rewrite in C++).
* Add dependencies on the LLVMBuild.txt files to the build system, so that
the build will reconfigure appropriately when the library
* Remove GenLibDeps.pl, find-cycles.pl, etc.
We will no longer be using these after llvm-config has moved over.
* Add explicit source file lists to the LLVMBuild.txt files. Unfortunately,
this is inevitable if we want to support CMake users projects automatically
reconfiguring themselves when new files get added. I can make it easier to
manage (for example, provide build targets that will automatically add any
* Move both Make and CMake over to using the explicit file lists in the
LLVMBuild files. This ensures that both systems get the same behavior
(instead of Make users being able to add files and forget to update
* Add new 'lit' tests to check that the library dependency
information is correct.
This seems a nicer place to do the checking which is currently partially
handled by find-cycles, and we should also be able to do a better job of the
checking (for example, verifying that the dependency list is "exact" -- only
specifies the minimum set of libraries required, and isn't allowed to specify
libraries which are only indirectly required).
It would be particularly cool if we could just write these tests using our
This is one piece I haven't prototyped yet. I can obviously do something as
good as the current find-cycles.pl, but I hope to do better (eventually).
* These are just the first steps, after this I will continue to incrementally
try and move as much common information out of the Make and CMake systems so
there is "one source of truth" with regard to the project definition.
* I assume it is obvious, but when I say "LLVM" here I am referring to both
LLVM and Clang. I have not looked at lldb yet, but if it uses the LLVM build
system (and llvm-config) functionality I will try to make sure it
continues to work.
What This Means For Jane "LLVM Developer" Doe
In practice, this means:
* LLVM requires Python to build.
* When you add a file to LLVM, you will need to edit LLVMBuild.txt instead of
CMakeLists.txt, which will be in a slightly different, but otherwise totally
If you forget to do this, your file will not be built (which will most likely
cause a link error eventually). This is better than it being built by Make,
but causing CMake build failures when you check in.
* When you add a new library requirement to an existing component, you will be
required to edit LLVMBuild.txt instead of CMakeLists.txt, which will be in a
slightly different, but otherwise totally obvious (hopefully) format.
If you forget to do this, you will either get a link error or a test
failure. This is better than library you need transparently getting linked in
(with make) because it forces you to think about whether you actually should
be adding that dependency.
The goal is that this also ensures that if LLVM links and passes tests on
your system, then it should for everyone else as well.
* Developers not actively touching the build system should never need to touch
a Makefile or a CMake file.
Overall, I believe this should be a quality of life improvement for the
developer community. The only downside is having to deal with a new non-standard
LLVM specific format, but I plan to solve this through documentation.
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