<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Chris Bieneman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:beanz@apple.com" target="_blank">beanz@apple.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><span class=""><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Aaron Ballman <<a href="mailto:aaron@aaronballman.com" target="_blank">aaron@aaronballman.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Chris Bieneman <</span><a href="mailto:beanz@apple.com" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">beanz@apple.com</a><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">> wrote:</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Feb 16, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Aaron Ballman <<a href="mailto:aaron@aaronballman.com" target="_blank">aaron@aaronballman.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Chris Bieneman <<a href="mailto:beanz@apple.com" target="_blank">beanz@apple.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">The plan as stated was:<br><br>1) Loop in cfe-dev and lldb-dev (Done!)<br>2) Wait until this email fully circulates in digests and LLVM Weekly so that everyone who has an objection can voice it<br>3) If there are no objections, Commit a change to the CMake build which errors on old MSVC versions<br>4) Revert and fix buildbots<br>5) Repeat 3 & 4 until no issues<br></blockquote><br>It's my understanding that we're past step 5 currently, and waiting to<br>do step 6.<br></blockquote><br>When I landed the change originally I saw no failures from any public bots. I assume Takumi reverted it because there was a failure on a non-public bot. Since the change re-landed on Sunday, I don’t think it is really safe to assume all non-public bots had been migrated.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Takumi's bots are public bots:<span> </span></span><a href="http://bb.pgr.jp/builders" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank">http://bb.pgr.jp/builders</a><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">. They also</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">happily alert folks in IRC.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I’m aware of all this, and was on IRC when I landed the change on Friday, which is why I was surprised when I didn’t see any failures, but my commit was still reverted (hence my comment about assuming it was non-public).</div><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">I’m not trying to stand in the way of progress here, but I do feel like we’ve kinda thrown the plan to the wind here.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I think we're following different plans; I think the progress d0k and</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I have made was done following the plan. I may be wrong with my</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">understanding of the plan, however.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I definitely think we had different interpretations of the plan. Maybe we should be more explicit about timelines for transitions like this in the future.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>IIRC we actually discussed a pretty concrete process for MSVC min version upgrades when we upped to 2012. I can't seem to find the thread though.</div><div><br></div><div>-- Sean </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite">6) Once the change is live for a week with no issues, update the documentation to reflect the minimum required MSVC version as 2013<br><br>This really doesn’t make sense if we are landing changes requiring MSVC 2013 between steps 3&5. Reverting as needed now that we have a stack of changes that is piling up isn’t really viable anymore.<br></blockquote><br>You are correct, if we need to revert, it would be challenging. My<br>understanding is that we do not need to revert any further, as<br>Chapuni's bots were the last ones that needed specific attention. The<br>lld and lldb bots may require further attention, but not certain<br>whether they require this change to be reverted? Those owners would<br>have to speak up with what they'd like to see happen.<br></blockquote><br>Hopefull there are no issues, but since this was re-landed on a Sunday when a lot of people aren’t around and watching I’m nervous that we may have broken things when people weren’t looking.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I've not seen any bot-related issues arise in email or IRC yet, and I</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">suspect we would have tickled *something* by now if there were major</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">problems.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I think you’re right, that at this point we are probably safe to assume all is well in the world. I didn’t really feel that this was the case when I started sending emails on this thread earlier this morning. I’m not sure what things are like in your office, but Apple’s campus is a bit of a ghost town before 10am on Monday mornings.</div><span class=""><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br><blockquote type="cite"><br><blockquote type="cite">So I assume the new plan to just make anyone using MSVC update or they can’t build anymore.<br></blockquote><br>They couldn't build after step 3 anyway (almost any source changes<br>require CMake to rebuild the solutions, so any source fetches getting<br>newer code would also get the CMake files requiring a newer version of<br>MSVC before the solution can be generated). The repetition part of the<br>above steps is for build bots, not all users (though, obviously, if<br>there are major users who are stuck and didn't realize it until now,<br>we would have to figure out how to handle that).<br></blockquote><br>Right, but step 4 is to revert that change. We’ve now basically made it prohibitively difficult to revert.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Agreed.</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Look, I want to use variadic templates as much as the next guy, I’m just also wanting to be considerate of our unfortunate colleagues using MSVC.<br></blockquote><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">As one of the people who was opposed to this change originally</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">specifically for that consideration, I appreciate it (though I would</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">not describe us as "unfortunate.”)</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Don’t take it personally. I kinda view anyone not using Vim and Ninja as their development environment as impoverished :-).</div><div><br></div>-Chris</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">~Aaron</span></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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