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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/21/21 12:53 PM, Chris Lattner
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A21CC468-625F-45FD-8FB7-955DCF424B36@nondot.org">
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On Jun 9, 2021, at 10:50 AM, Philip Reames via llvm-dev <<a
href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:
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class="">Specific to the dev lists, I'm very hesitant
about moving from mailing lists to discourse. Why? <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</p>
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class="">Well, the first and most basic is I'm worried
about having core infrastructure out of our own control.
For all their problems, mailing lists are widely
supported, there are many vendors/contractors available.
For discourse, as far as I can tell, there's one vendor.
It's very much a take it or leave it situation. The
ability to preserve discussion archives through a
transition away from discourse someday concerns me. I
regularly and routinely need to dig back through llvm-dev
threads which are years old. I've also recently had some
severely negative customer experiences with other tools
(most recently discord), and the thought of having my
employability and ability to contribute to open source
tied to my ability to get a response from customer service
teams at some third party vendor I have no leverage with,
bluntly, scares me. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
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class="">Second, I feel that we've overstated the
difficulty of maintaining mailing lists. I have to
acknowledge that I have little first hand experience
administering mailman, so maybe I'm way off here. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></p>
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Hi Philip,</blockquote>
Hi Chris,<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A21CC468-625F-45FD-8FB7-955DCF424B36@nondot.org">
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<div class="">First, despite the similar names, Discord is very
different than Discourse. Here I’m only commenting about
Discourse, I have no opinion about Discord.</div>
</blockquote>
I'm aware, thank you. I'm sorry that my wording seems to have
caused confusion on this point.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A21CC468-625F-45FD-8FB7-955DCF424B36@nondot.org">
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<div class="">In this case, I think we need to highly weight the
opinions of the people actively mainlining the existing
systems. It has become clear that the priority isn’t “control
our own lists”, it is “make sure they stay up” and “get LLVM
people out of maintaining them”.</div>
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</div>
<div class="">The ongoing load of maintaining these lists
(including moderation) and of dealing with the security issues
that keep coming up are carried by several individuals, not by
the entire community. I’m concerned about those individuals,
but I’m also more broadly concerned about *any* individuals
being solely responsible for LLVM infra. Effectively every
case we’ve had where an individual has driving LLVM infra
turns out to be a problem. LLVM as a project isn’t good at
running web scale infra, but we highly depend on it.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">It seems clear to me that we should outsource this
to a proven vendor. <br>
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</blockquote>
I agree with everything you said up to here. The goals make sense,
and I fully support them.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:A21CC468-625F-45FD-8FB7-955DCF424B36@nondot.org">
<div class="">
<div class="">Your concerns about discourse seem very similar to
the discussion about moving to Github (being a single vendor
who was once much smaller than Microsoft). I think your
concerns are best addressed by having the IWG propose an
answer to “what is our plan if Discourse-the-company goes
sideways?"</div>
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</blockquote>
<p>This is where I disagree. The key point for me is that mailman3
exists and there are commercial vendors who specialize in exactly
what we need. I don't object at all to having a proven vendor. I
just don't see discourse as being the obvious choice.</p>
<p>Now, as I said in my first email, you don't actually need to
convince me here. If the move is made to discourse, I will
follow. At the end of the day, a decision does need to be made,
and I'm willing to defer to those putting in the work.</p>
<p>Philip<br>
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