<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 10, 2018, at 13:30, JF Bastien <<a href="mailto:jfbastien@apple.com" class="">jfbastien@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 10, 2018, at 8:39 AM, Keane, Erich via cfe-dev <<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Would a better solution be to simply have <experimental/optional> #include <optional> (perhaps with some namespace-wrapping?), and in C++17+ mode have a #warning instead of that #error?</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Seems like a better fix, yes.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Just to follow up on this. It’s been said before, but the problem is that std::experimental::optional and std::optional are not the same thing. std::experimental::optional is frozen in time, but std::optional will keep evolving. Hence, we would really need to keep providing two implementations that may start diverging with time. This is explained here: <a href="http://libcxx.llvm.org/TS_deprecation.html" class="">http://libcxx.llvm.org/TS_deprecation.html</a>.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I think what this means is simply that a library that tries to be cross-platform and stable through time can’t use experimental features in its interface, since those are not guaranteed to be stable. This is somewhat unfortunate, but it’s explicit in the fact that those features are “experimental”.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>The other option would be to do like libstdc++: just keep std::experimental::optional around forever, and fork (i.e. copy-paste) that code into std::optional. Then, keep evolving std::optional and let it diverge from std::experimental::optional. It’s a valid choice to make, but it’s not what libc++ is doing because of the reasons explained in <a href="http://libcxx.llvm.org/TS_deprecation.html" class="">http://libcxx.llvm.org/TS_deprecation.html</a>.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I personally think that deprecating TSes (what libc++ does) is better in the long term — users pay a cost upfront when they need to update, but it’s better in the long run because they’re using the “real” standardized version of the feature.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Louis</div><div><div><br class=""></div></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">It seems that would create a good transition plan for everyone involved. So something like:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">:experimental/optional:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">#if __cplusplus >=20170101<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> #warning<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>"<experimental/optional> has been removed. Use <optional> instead."<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">#endif<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">#define __LIBCXX_OPTIONAL_USES_EXPERIMENTAL_NS<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">#include <optional><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">#undef __LIBCXX_OPTIONAL_USES_EXPERIMENTAL_NS<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Then, in :<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">:optional:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">namespace std {<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">#ifdef<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">__LIBCXX_OPTIONAL_USES_EXPERIMENTAL_NS<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">namespace experimental {<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">#endif<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">/// And So on?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><a name="_MailEndCompose" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></a></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>cfe-dev [<a href="mailto:cfe-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" class="">mailto:cfe-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Louis Dionne via cfe-dev<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, August 10, 2018 8:32 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>David Blaikie <<a href="mailto:dblaikie@gmail.com" class="">dblaikie@gmail.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Richard Powell <<a href="mailto:richardp@apple.com" class="">richardp@apple.com</a>>; cfe-dev <<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cfe-dev] Improving diagnostics when moving standard library headers<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Actually, the problem is deeper than this. Since we removed support for <experimental/optional> completely and <optional> is only provided in C++17 and above, we created a hole for users that want <optional> in C++14. They just can’t get it anymore, whereas previously they would have used <experimental/optional>. As much as I hate to say this, I think the answer to this question is just “you’re using experimental features, sorry if they go away.” Or, alternatively, we could keep providing <experimental/optional> in C++14 mode.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Given that the nature of the problem is different than what I initially thought, I don’t think it is worth pursuing any kind of compiler change to enable what I talked about in the original message.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Louis<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">On Aug 10, 2018, at 11:25, David Blaikie <<a href="mailto:dblaikie@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">dblaikie@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Why would the user write the code in that way, though? Wouldn't they want "has_include optional, include optional, else include experimental/optional"? to prefer the final/standardized version<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:13 AM Louis Dionne via cfe-dev <<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">Hi,<br class=""><br class="">In libc++, we moved the <experimental/optional> header to <optional>. To guide users when they try to use <experimental/optional>, that file now contains:<br class=""><br class=""> #error "<experimental/optional> has been removed. Use <optional> instead."<br class=""><br class="">The problem is that it traps people using __has_include(<experimental/optional>) to detect whether they should be using std::experimental::optional or std::optional on the version of the standard library they're using. For example:<br class=""><br class=""> #if __has_include(<experimental/optional>)<br class=""> # include <experimental/optional><br class=""> #else<br class=""> # include <optional><br class=""> #endif<br class=""><br class="">This is currently always broken, since <experimental/optional> is always provided, but including it is an error.<br class=""><br class="">I believe a better situation would be to remove the header, but somehow have a way of providing a better compiler diagnostic than the default one when that header is included. The default diagnostic will just say “I can’t find this header!”, whereas we really want to say "This header has been moved over there". Ideally, this sort of feature would also be usable by other libraries, not just the standard library, but I’d welcome just about any solution for now.<br class=""><br class="">My question: Do we have a way of achieving what I'm requesting today? If not, does anyone have ideas about how to achieve this? My guess is that a pragma in the header that's been moved would not work, because that means __has_include would have to know way more than it probably does today.<br class=""><br class="">Thanks,<br class="">Louis<br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">cfe-dev mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">cfe-dev mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" class="">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev" class="">http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev</a></span></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>