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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">|
</span>It's not sanely possible to enumerate all the possibilities<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not looking for that. Looking to avoid being trolled. ("Trolled" isn't the right word here but I've lost track of what the right one is. Hopefully my intent
is clear enough.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">|
</span>I guess one could write "<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in rare</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the communitie's social standard."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If that's what it means, is there a problem with writing it that way?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">|
</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">But it's not, in practice, any different.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I concede it's not any different to a lawyer, which I know you are; most of us are not lawyers. Again, if it's not any different, is there a problem with writing
it in a way that provides clarity to the non-lawyer population?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">--paulr<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Daniel Berlin [mailto:dberlin@dberlin.org]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 3:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robinson, Paul; Rafael Espíndola<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LLDB; cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org; llvm-dev; openmp-dev (openmp-dev@lists.llvm.org)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an LLVM Code of Conduct<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That's just a residual clause.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It's not sanely possible to enumerate all the possibilities here (IE if you stalk and murder someone in the llvm community, you are going to get kicked out of the community, regardless of if you did it in a controlled space)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I mean, i'm subject to legal ethics rules that are very similar, and those could get me kicked out of an entire profession :)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I guess one could write "<span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in rare</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them, when the conduct amounts to an egregious violation of the communitie's social standard."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">But it's not, in practice, any different.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Basically, if you are looking for complete and total bright line proscribed standards, they pretty much don't exist anywhere except in criminal statutes :)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016, 2:45 PM Robinson, Paul <<a href="mailto:paul.robinson@sony.com" target="_blank">paul.robinson@sony.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I expect Rafael's concern is because the code also says:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222;background:white">In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may, in rare</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><br>
<span style="background:white">cases, affect a person's ability to participate within them.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_-5234536618549227243_m_-38629346803826"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So it can apply outside spaces explicitly sponsored
by LLVM, in undefined circumstances.</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">--paulr</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> cfe-dev [mailto:<a href="mailto:cfe-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">cfe-dev-bounces@lists.llvm.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Daniel Berlin via cfe-dev<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, June 30, 2016 1:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Rafael Espíndola<br>
<b>Cc:</b> llvm-dev; cfe-dev; openmp-dev (<a href="mailto:openmp-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">openmp-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>); LLDB<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cfe-dev] [llvm-dev] FYI: Landing the initial draft for an LLVM Code of Conduct</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Rafael Espíndola <<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">I am strongly opposed to it as it stands.<br>
<br>
Who decided this and with what authority? As written the code of<br>
conduct tries restrict the acceptable opinions one may voice even in<br>
channels not related to llvm at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">errr, it says:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"This code of conduct applies to all spaces managed by the LLVM project or The<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">LLVM Foundation. This includes IRC channels, mailing lists, bug trackers, LLVM<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">vents such as the developer meetings and socials, and any other forums created<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">by the project that the community uses for communication. "<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">How does this cover channels not related to llvm?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">With this in place I will not consider myself a member of the llvm<br>
community anymore and would be terrified to interact with another llvm<br>
developer in a social setting.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">That would be sad, but i guess i'm not sure what is causing that. Is it that there is discretion in there that you are afraid may apply to you if taken to some extreme? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Rafael<br>
<br>
On 30 June 2016 at 14:55, Chandler Carruth via cfe-dev<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><<a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hello folks,<br>
><br>
> As mentioned some time ago[1], we’ve had a long (looooooong) series of<br>
> discussions about establishing a code-of-conduct for the LLVM project as a<br>
> whole over on the llvm-dev thread and the <a href="http://reviews.llvm.org/D13741" target="_blank">
http://reviews.llvm.org/D13741</a><br>
> code review.<br>
><br>
> The discussion has largely died down for some time, and towards the end<br>
> there has been pretty wide support for the draft wording we have now. It<br>
> isn’t perfect, and there are still some important questions around forming<br>
> the advisory committee to handle reporting, but I think the wording is at a<br>
> good point of compromise in a challenging area.<br>
><br>
> Based on the support, I’m going to land the patch that adds the draft. I’m<br>
> hoping this will immediately provide good advice and guidance, and I’m<br>
> hoping to see motion on setting up a reasonable advisory committee and<br>
> resolving any issues around reporting so we can make this an official part<br>
> of the community.<br>
><br>
> I sending this as a heads up so folks are aware, not to start a new<br>
> discussion thread. There are existing discussion threads[2] on llvm-dev if<br>
> folks want to join in active discussion or we can start fresh ones, but I<br>
> would encourage people to carefully read the discussion that has already<br>
> taken place to avoid revisiting areas that have already been heavily<br>
> discussed.<br>
><br>
> Also, many thanks to the folks who provided all their opinions on the<br>
> mailing list threads and in person in long discussions about this topic.<br>
><br>
> Thanks,<br>
> -Chandler<br>
><br>
> [1]: Prior announcements:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-October/091218.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-October/091218.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/cfe-dev/2015-October/045460.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/cfe-dev/2015-October/045460.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/lldb-dev/2015-October/008530.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/lldb-dev/2015-October/008530.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/openmp-dev/2015-October/000954.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/openmp-dev/2015-October/000954.html</a><br>
><br>
> [2]: Existing threads:<br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-October/091218.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-October/091218.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2016-May/099120.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2016-May/099120.html</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-commits/Week-of-Mon-20151019/307070.html" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-commits/Week-of-Mon-20151019/307070.html</a><br>
><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">> _______________________________________________<br>
> cfe-dev mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">cfe-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev" target="_blank">
http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
LLVM Developers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org" target="_blank">llvm-dev@lists.llvm.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/llvm-dev</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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